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So the recent threads were I was asking about acceptable things during married sex got me think.  What is a lay Catholic supposed to do on the church's more nuanced positions to avoid sin?  I am not referring to things which the church spells out easily.  Such as about abortion, murder, contraception ans so on.  I mean more along the lines of things the church does not explicitly state and we are to us church teaching to apply principles to determine the right course.

So I imagine before the invention of modern media (most of church history exists before the internet, tv and radio) if a Catholic was unsure of a church teaching he would simply ask his priest that lived in his town/village.  I mean a Catholic had access to the priest, maybe the bishop from time to time and the bible and the catechism.  Like that was it.  So what his priest told him, was what he had to go off of and followed that.

Now today, since the invention of modern media its all messed up.  I mean just look how many times on these boards do people look for answers and they get all sorts of conflicting information.  I hear all the time, find a traditional priest and ask his opinion.  Someone does and then they are told that priest is not traditional enough.  So disregard his answers.  Or a priest will say one thing and then it will be pointed out a priest from across the country posts something online that contradicts what the persons priest told him.  They are told to listen to that priests opinion, since he is more knowledgeable or traditional  or for whatever reason.  Then someone chimes in and says a Saint contradicts that teaching as we are called to follow the Saints.  Then someone says well the Saints are not always right on things (I recently heard that ST. Augustine(I think it was this Saint) said a man should not have sex with his wife during pregnancy).  Then someone else chimes in and says we need to study all things the church and priests have said throughout history and discern what is right.  

I know I am rambling but my point is what is a lay Catholic to do.  I'm not talking about people like MM who have studied theology and can understand the nuanced positions and can reasonably determine the correct answer.  I am talking about the lay person who is trying to live a holy life.  One who raises a family and can not study theology (in a reasonable amount of time to get an answer to if something is sinful or not and weather to commit some action or not) or just someone who is not intellectually smart enough to understand theology and many of the church documents.  I know for me personally, understanding some of the church writings is no easy task.  What are they supposed to do?  In the past,  ask your priest who lived in your town/village and you got your answer.  Now many people advocate not doing that.  

So how is a lay Catholic supposed to understand nuances positions on church teachings and what and or who to follow.  I am not talking about positions we all know but nuanced positions that the church does not explicitly say or positions relative to ones personal question?
(05-04-2018, 10:25 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]So the recent threads were I was asking about acceptable things during married sex got me think.  What is a lay Catholic supposed to do on the church's more nuanced positions to avoid sin?  I am not referring to things which the church spells out easily.  Such as about abortion, murder, contraception ans so on.  I mean more along the lines of things the church does not explicitly state and we are to us church teaching to apply principles to determine the right course.

So I imagine before the invention of modern media (most of church history exists before the internet, tv and radio) if a Catholic was unsure of a church teaching he would simply ask his priest that lived in his town/village.  I mean a Catholic had access to the priest, maybe the bishop from time to time and the bible and the catechism.  Like that was it.  So what his priest told him, was what he had to go off of and followed that.

Now today, since the invention of modern media its all messed up.  I mean just look how many times on these boards do people look for answers and they get all sorts of conflicting information.  I hear all the time, find a traditional priest and ask his opinion.  Someone does and then they are told that priest is not traditional enough.  So disregard his answers.  Or a priest will say one thing and then it will be pointed out a priest from across the country posts something online that contradicts what the persons priest told him.  They are told to listen to that priests opinion, since he is more knowledgeable or traditional  or for whatever reason.  Then someone chimes in and says a Saint contradicts that teaching as we are called to follow the Saints.  Then someone says well the Saints are not always right on things (I recently heard that ST. Augustine(I think it was this Saint) said a man should not have sex with his wife during pregnancy).  Then someone else chimes in and says we need to study all things the church and priests have said throughout history and discern what is right.  

I know I am rambling but my point is what is a lay Catholic to do.  I'm not talking about people like MM who have studied theology and can understand the nuanced positions and can reasonably determine the correct answer.  I am talking about the lay person who is trying to live a holy life.  One who raises a family and can not study theology (in a reasonable amount of time to get an answer to if something is sinful or not and weather to commit some action or not) or just someone who is not intellectually smart enough to understand theology and many of the church documents.  I know for me personally, understanding some of the church writings is no easy task.  What are they supposed to do?  In the past,  ask your priest who lived in your town/village and you got your answer.  Now many people advocate not doing that.  

So how is a lay Catholic supposed to understand nuances positions on church teachings and what and or who to follow.  I am not talking about positions we all know but nuanced positions that the church does not explicitly say or positions relative to ones personal question?

First the base of the pyramid:

1) The truth can be known with certitude.  Define all key words rationally.

2) First philosophical principles: Seek the truth in all things.  Do good and avoid evil.

3) First theological principles:  Maintain the rule of the true faith.  Judge just judgment. 

Last the summit of the pyramid:

4) Keep the commandments.  Love God above all things.

Ultimately, during a person's particular judgments he will be judged for his own lackings and not able to fall back on the excuse of what someone else told him, whether priest or bishop.  We all know contradictions can't exist.  In this age of contradictions, we're going to have to go to the effort with the tools at hand to dispel these ourselves.
(05-04-2018, 10:50 AM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2018, 10:25 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]So the recent threads were I was asking about acceptable things during married sex got me think.  What is a lay Catholic supposed to do on the church's more nuanced positions to avoid sin?  I am not referring to things which the church spells out easily.  Such as about abortion, murder, contraception ans so on.  I mean more along the lines of things the church does not explicitly state and we are to us church teaching to apply principles to determine the right course.

So I imagine before the invention of modern media (most of church history exists before the internet, tv and radio) if a Catholic was unsure of a church teaching he would simply ask his priest that lived in his town/village.  I mean a Catholic had access to the priest, maybe the bishop from time to time and the bible and the catechism.  Like that was it.  So what his priest told him, was what he had to go off of and followed that.

Now today, since the invention of modern media its all messed up.  I mean just look how many times on these boards do people look for answers and they get all sorts of conflicting information.  I hear all the time, find a traditional priest and ask his opinion.  Someone does and then they are told that priest is not traditional enough.  So disregard his answers.  Or a priest will say one thing and then it will be pointed out a priest from across the country posts something online that contradicts what the persons priest told him.  They are told to listen to that priests opinion, since he is more knowledgeable or traditional  or for whatever reason.  Then someone chimes in and says a Saint contradicts that teaching as we are called to follow the Saints.  Then someone says well the Saints are not always right on things (I recently heard that ST. Augustine(I think it was this Saint) said a man should not have sex with his wife during pregnancy).  Then someone else chimes in and says we need to study all things the church and priests have said throughout history and discern what is right.  

I know I am rambling but my point is what is a lay Catholic to do.  I'm not talking about people like MM who have studied theology and can understand the nuanced positions and can reasonably determine the correct answer.  I am talking about the lay person who is trying to live a holy life.  One who raises a family and can not study theology (in a reasonable amount of time to get an answer to if something is sinful or not and weather to commit some action or not) or just someone who is not intellectually smart enough to understand theology and many of the church documents.  I know for me personally, understanding some of the church writings is no easy task.  What are they supposed to do?  In the past,  ask your priest who lived in your town/village and you got your answer.  Now many people advocate not doing that.  

So how is a lay Catholic supposed to understand nuances positions on church teachings and what and or who to follow.  I am not talking about positions we all know but nuanced positions that the church does not explicitly say or positions relative to ones personal question?

First the base of the pyramid:

1) The truth can be known with certitude.  Define all key words rationally.

2) First philosophical principles: Seek the truth in all things.  Do good and avoid evil.

3) First theological principles:  Maintain the rule of the true faith.  Judge just judgment. 

Last the summit of the pyramid:

4) Keep the commandments.  Love God above all things.

Ultimately, during a person's particular judgments he will be judged for his own lackings and not able to fall back on the excuse of what someone else told him, whether priest or bishop.  We all know contradictions can't exist.  In this age of contradictions, we're going to have to go to the effort with the tools at hand to dispel these ourselves.
Ok but this is exactly what I am talking about.  What is the average lay person supposed to do.  Not the one who have studies theology for years or is intellectually on the higher end of the scale.

I'll give you an example.  I have researched foreplay in marriage for years, ad nausea.  For years.  I had only ever seen one thing ever about St.Alphonsus condemn oral stimulation on men.  It was from the priest at sensus traditus.  Other than his instance St. Alphonsus condemn oral stimulation on men (the priest say moralists say its ok for stimulation of the women) I have never heard of this.  All other theologians that I have seen say if the man ends properly then foreplay is ok.  It wasn't until this year I saw this arguement on Catholic answers from their new priest that other theologians were wrong and what st.alphonsus is right and it applies to both men and women.  He says his opinion is right.

That's just one example.  How is a Catholic supposed to even find out about the faith when they are trying to find out the truth.  I mean to study all the Saints, Popes and theolgians is not an easy thing and not reasonable when someone needs answer right then.  Such as a pharmacist or a doctor needing an answer on the morality of an certain action.  They can not tell their job they can't perform such and such action for a least a few years until they have studied church teaching to see if it is moral on not.  I mean is the business supposed to put everything on hold for ANY person from time to time until they can spend the years researching if the action is moral or not?  That's not reasonable.  Same for anything a couple or a parent.  

At the end of the day people are called to learn church teaching.  Although church teaching on nuanced issues do not just come to a person suddenly except for God letting a person know.  So where does one get their answers from most importantly on issues which they can not discern for themselves?  People claim we can't trust all priests teachings, or bishops or even books with a nihil and impurtur on it.  Or even all Pope's writings and teachings.  We also must not trust all theologians or even follow all Saints teachings as Saints can be wrong.  Before it was Catholic would ask their priest for an answer and they would give him or I imagine consult some texts or ask the bishop to get the answer for the parishioner.  Although now and a lot of it is seen on these boards that we are called to only believe priests, theologians and bishops who speak on church teaching.  Although how a parishioner is supposed to determine that when they themselves are confused doesn't make sense.  Or the fact that for every answer someone brings up online, someone else counters that with some priest or bishop who says something different.  People will claim follow this priest or that one or this one because they are true.  

What is a lay Catholic to do in society today?
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas.
(05-04-2018, 11:16 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2018, 10:50 AM)yablabo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2018, 10:25 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]So the recent threads were I was asking about acceptable things during married sex got me think.  What is a lay Catholic supposed to do on the church's more nuanced positions to avoid sin?  I am not referring to things which the church spells out easily.  Such as about abortion, murder, contraception ans so on.  I mean more along the lines of things the church does not explicitly state and we are to us church teaching to apply principles to determine the right course.

So I imagine before the invention of modern media (most of church history exists before the internet, tv and radio) if a Catholic was unsure of a church teaching he would simply ask his priest that lived in his town/village.  I mean a Catholic had access to the priest, maybe the bishop from time to time and the bible and the catechism.  Like that was it.  So what his priest told him, was what he had to go off of and followed that.

Now today, since the invention of modern media its all messed up.  I mean just look how many times on these boards do people look for answers and they get all sorts of conflicting information.  I hear all the time, find a traditional priest and ask his opinion.  Someone does and then they are told that priest is not traditional enough.  So disregard his answers.  Or a priest will say one thing and then it will be pointed out a priest from across the country posts something online that contradicts what the persons priest told him.  They are told to listen to that priests opinion, since he is more knowledgeable or traditional  or for whatever reason.  Then someone chimes in and says a Saint contradicts that teaching as we are called to follow the Saints.  Then someone says well the Saints are not always right on things (I recently heard that ST. Augustine(I think it was this Saint) said a man should not have sex with his wife during pregnancy).  Then someone else chimes in and says we need to study all things the church and priests have said throughout history and discern what is right.  

I know I am rambling but my point is what is a lay Catholic to do.  I'm not talking about people like MM who have studied theology and can understand the nuanced positions and can reasonably determine the correct answer.  I am talking about the lay person who is trying to live a holy life.  One who raises a family and can not study theology (in a reasonable amount of time to get an answer to if something is sinful or not and weather to commit some action or not) or just someone who is not intellectually smart enough to understand theology and many of the church documents.  I know for me personally, understanding some of the church writings is no easy task.  What are they supposed to do?  In the past,  ask your priest who lived in your town/village and you got your answer.  Now many people advocate not doing that.  

So how is a lay Catholic supposed to understand nuances positions on church teachings and what and or who to follow.  I am not talking about positions we all know but nuanced positions that the church does not explicitly say or positions relative to ones personal question?

First the base of the pyramid:

1) The truth can be known with certitude.  Define all key words rationally.

2) First philosophical principles: Seek the truth in all things.  Do good and avoid evil.

3) First theological principles:  Maintain the rule of the true faith.  Judge just judgment. 

Last the summit of the pyramid:

4) Keep the commandments.  Love God above all things.

Ultimately, during a person's particular judgments he will be judged for his own lackings and not able to fall back on the excuse of what someone else told him, whether priest or bishop.  We all know contradictions can't exist.  In this age of contradictions, we're going to have to go to the effort with the tools at hand to dispel these ourselves.
Ok but this is exactly what I am talking about.  What is the average lay person supposed to do.  Not the one who have studies theology for years or is intellectually on the higher end of the scale.

I'll give you an example.  I have researched foreplay in marriage for years, ad nausea.  For years.  I had only ever seen one thing ever about St.Alphonsus condemn oral stimulation on men.  It was from the priest at sensus traditus.  Other than his instance St. Alphonsus condemn oral stimulation on men (the priest say moralists say its ok for stimulation of the women) I have never heard of this.  All other theologians that I have seen say if the man ends properly then foreplay is ok.  It wasn't until this year I saw this arguement on Catholic answers from their new priest that other theologians were wrong and what st.alphonsus is right and it applies to both men and women.  He says his opinion is right.

That's just one example.  How is a Catholic supposed to even find out about the faith when they are trying to find out the truth.  I mean to study all the Saints, Popes and theolgians is not an easy thing and not reasonable when someone needs answer right then.  Such as a pharmacist or a doctor needing an answer on the morality of an certain action.  They can not tell their job they can't perform such and such action for a least a few years until they have studied church teaching to see if it is moral on not.  I mean is the business supposed to put everything on hold for ANY person from time to time until they can spend the years researching if the action is moral or not?  That's not reasonable.  Same for anything a couple or a parent.  

At the end of the day people are called to learn church teaching.  Although church teaching on nuanced issues do not just come to a person suddenly except for God letting a person know.  So where does one get their answers from most importantly on issues which they can not discern for themselves?  People claim we can't trust all priests teachings, or bishops or even books with a nihil and impurtur on it.  Or even all Pope's writings and teachings.  We also must not trust all theologians or even follow all Saints teachings as Saints can be wrong.  Before it was Catholic would ask their priest for an answer and they would give him or I imagine consult some texts or ask the bishop to get the answer for the parishioner.  Although now and a lot of it is seen on these boards that we are called to only believe priests, theologians and bishops who speak on church teaching.  Although how a parishioner is supposed to determine that when they themselves are confused doesn't make sense.  Or the fact that for every answer someone brings up online, someone else counters that with some priest or bishop who says something different.  People will claim follow this priest or that one or this one because they are true.  

What is a lay Catholic to do in society today?

I do have every intention of responding to your post.  Will do so after work.  All the best til then, brother.
(05-04-2018, 11:16 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]Ok but this is exactly what I am talking about.  What is the average lay person supposed to do.  Not the one who have studies theology for years or is intellectually on the higher end of the scale.

I'll give you an example.  I have researched foreplay in marriage for years, ad nausea.  For years.  I had only ever seen one thing ever about St.Alphonsus condemn oral stimulation on men.  It was from the priest at sensus traditus.  Other than his instance St. Alphonsus condemn oral stimulation on men (the priest say moralists say its ok for stimulation of the women) I have never heard of this.  All other theologians that I have seen say if the man ends properly then foreplay is ok.  It wasn't until this year I saw this arguement on Catholic answers from their new priest that other theologians were wrong and what st.alphonsus is right and it applies to both men and women.  He says his opinion is right.

That's just one example.  How is a Catholic supposed to even find out about the faith when they are trying to find out the truth.  I mean to study all the Saints, Popes and theolgians is not an easy thing and not reasonable when someone needs answer right then.  Such as a pharmacist or a doctor needing an answer on the morality of an certain action.  They can not tell their job they can't perform such and such action for a least a few years until they have studied church teaching to see if it is moral on not.  I mean is the business supposed to put everything on hold for ANY person from time to time until they can spend the years researching if the action is moral or not?  That's not reasonable.  Same for anything a couple or a parent.  

At the end of the day people are called to learn church teaching.  Although church teaching on nuanced issues do not just come to a person suddenly except for God letting a person know.  So where does one get their answers from most importantly on issues which they can not discern for themselves?  People claim we can't trust all priests teachings, or bishops or even books with a nihil and impurtur on it.  Or even all Pope's writings and teachings.  We also must not trust all theologians or even follow all Saints teachings as Saints can be wrong.  Before it was Catholic would ask their priest for an answer and they would give him or I imagine consult some texts or ask the bishop to get the answer for the parishioner.  Although now and a lot of it is seen on these boards that we are called to only believe priests, theologians and bishops who speak on church teaching.  Although how a parishioner is supposed to determine that when they themselves are confused doesn't make sense.  Or the fact that for every answer someone brings up online, someone else counters that with some priest or bishop who says something different.  People will claim follow this priest or that one or this one because they are true.  

What is a lay Catholic to do in society today?

I hear ya, brother.

It appears to me that you may be struggling due to a lacking of knowledge of the rule of faith, that is, the standard by which a person judges what is and what is not of the faith.  This standard is offered in the First Vatican Council:

"Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium."

Take heart; if God has spoken, then he protects His word from error.  It is not hard for everyone to find out what they need to know. The First Vatican Council would probably be a great read for you to start with.  All of the ecumenical councils are available online.

Finally, to encourage you, another quotation from the First Vatican Council:

"It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error."

None of this is insurmountable.

"[7] Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you."

[Matthew 7:7]