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Are the conciliar Popes Catholic?
There was a conclave. All of the eligible cardinals went into the room. white smoke came our of the chimney. The dean of the cardinals came to the window and said the words, "Habemus Papum.." Then out came Pope Francis (aka Cardinal Bergoglio.)
Yes I think that qualifies him for being Pope.
(05-19-2018, 11:14 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: [ -> ]Are the conciliar Popes Catholic?

Yes. Just bad ones.
Is St. Peter's Basilica a Catholic Church?

The answer is the same, and just as meaningless.

In short, the question isn't an issue that "needs to be addressed". It is a exercise in equivocation around a term, "Catholic" which does not really mean much in this context, isn't going to help anyone understand the crisis in the Church or aid anyone toward their sanctification.

More likely it will lead to sniping back and forth over a silly word which means nothing absent context.
(05-19-2018, 11:14 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: [ -> ]Are the conciliar Popes Catholic?

Just my opinion, but I don't think the pre conciliar popes , if just meeting and probing the post conciliar popes on their beliefs without knowing their clergy status, would recognize them as professing the same integral Faith as themselves.

I always come back to Archbishop Lefebvres thoughts. He believed that it was very possible that these claimants were the ones who had actually separated themselves from communion with their ancestors and that what ecclesial body that had come out of Vatican II, while occupying the buildings, gave us completely unnecessary and questionable altared sacramental rites, reversal and almost direct contradiction of previously cemented doctrine, discipline and orthopraxis. Not to mention the gutting and wreckovation of high altars, statues, communion rails and modelers worldwide. It was almost an exact repeat of what Protestants did during the Reformation.

Letter Attributed to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
Feast of St. Augustine, August 29, 1987.


Adveniat Regnum Tuum 

To: Frs. Williamson, Tissier de Mallcrais, Fellay, de Gallareia. 

My Dear Friends, 

The See of Peter and posts of authority in Rome being occupied by anti-Christs, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even within His Mystical Body here below, especially through the corruption of the Holy Mass which is both the splendid expression of the triumph of Our Lord on the Cross, Regnavit a Ligno Deus, and the source of the extension of His Kingdom over souls and over societies. 

Atchbishop Lefebvre said:

“Which Church are we talking about? Are we talking about the Catholic Church, or another church, a Counter church16, a counterfeit of the Church? Now, I think sincerely, that we are talking about a counterfeit version of the Church, and not the Catholic Church. It does not teach any longer the Catholic faith. It teaches something else, it leads the Church to something else other than the Catholic Church. It is not longer the Catholic Church. They are sitting in the chairs of their predecessors, […] but they are not continuing in the line of their predecessors. They no longer have the same faith, nor the same doctrine, nor the same morality as their predecessors. So it is no longer possible. And principally, their great error is ecumenism. They teach an ecumenism which is contrary to the Catholic faith. […] The Church is occupied by this counter- church which we know well and that the Popes 17 knew perfectly, and that the Popes have condemned throughout the centuries; for what will be soon four centuries, the Church did not stop condemning this counter-church which was born especially with protestantism, and which was developed with protestantism, and which is at the origin of all modern errors, which has destroyed all philosophy, and which has led us to all the errors we have known, that the Popes have condemned; liberalism, socialism, communism, modernism, sillonism 18. We are dying from them. The Popes did everything to condemn that, and now behold those who are in the chairs of those who condemned these errors are in agreement with this liberalism and ecumenism. Now we cannot accept that. And the more things become clear, the more we perceive that this program […] all these errors, were elaborated in the masonic lodges19. “

"How could it be more clear?! From now on it is the conciliar church one must obey and be faithful to , and not to the Catholic Church. This is precisely our problem. We are suspended a divinis by the conciliar church, of which we do not want to be a part. This conciliar church is a schismatic church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church of all time. It has it’s new dogmas 22, it’s new priesthood 23, it’s new institutions24, it’s new liturgy25, already condemned by the Church in many official and definitive documents. This is why the founders of the conciliar church insist on obedience to the church of today, making abstraction of the Church of yesterday, as if it didn’t exist anymore. […] The church which affirms such errors is at one and the same time heretical and schismatic. This conciliar church is therefore not Catholic. In the measure in which the Pope, the bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The church of today is the true Church only in the measure in which it continues and is one with the Church of yesterday and of always. The norm for the Catholic faith is Tradition26. “

http://sedevacantist.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1201&sid=2fa34e49ea1552a48e1fc1f64386f844

Lefebvre, while not advocating sedevacantism (although I'm not sure if anticatholic popes would be really better than just simply nonpopes), and could see the danger of further splintering that goes along with it, nevertheless called it as he saw it and would leave to history how this situation would be made sense of.
(05-20-2018, 09:56 AM)BC Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-19-2018, 11:14 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: [ -> ]Are the conciliar Popes Catholic?

Just my opinion, but I don't think the pre conciliar popes , if just meeting and probing the post conciliar popes on their beliefs without knowing their clergy status, would recognize them as professing the same integral Faith as themselves.

I always come back to Archbishop Lefebvres thoughts. He believed that it was very possible that these claimants were the ones who had actually separated themselves from communion with their ancestors and that what ecclesial body that had come out of Vatican II, while occupying the buildings, gave us completely unnecessary and questionable altared sacramental rites, reversal and almost direct contradiction of previously cemented doctrine, discipline and orthopraxis. Not to mention the gutting and wreckovation of high altars, statues, communion rails and modelers worldwide. It was almost an exact repeat of what Protestants did during the Reformation.

Letter Attributed to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
Feast of St. Augustine, August 29, 1987.


Adveniat Regnum Tuum 

To: Frs. Williamson, Tissier de Mallcrais, Fellay, de Gallareia. 

My Dear Friends, 

The See of Peter and posts of authority in Rome being occupied by anti-Christs, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even within His Mystical Body here below, especially through the corruption of the Holy Mass which is both the splendid expression of the triumph of Our Lord on the Cross, Regnavit a Ligno Deus, and the source of the extension of His Kingdom over souls and over societies. 

Atchbishop Lefebvre said:

“Which Church are we talking about? Are we talking about the Catholic Church, or another church, a Counter church16, a counterfeit of the Church? Now, I think sincerely, that we are talking about a counterfeit version of the Church, and not the Catholic Church. It does not teach any longer the Catholic faith. It teaches something else, it leads the Church to something else other than the Catholic Church. It is not longer the Catholic Church. They are sitting in the chairs of their predecessors, […] but they are not continuing in the line of their predecessors. They no longer have the same faith, nor the same doctrine, nor the same morality as their predecessors. So it is no longer possible. And principally, their great error is ecumenism. They teach an ecumenism which is contrary to the Catholic faith. […] The Church is occupied by this counter- church which we know well and that the Popes 17 knew perfectly, and that the Popes have condemned throughout the centuries; for what will be soon four centuries, the Church did not stop condemning this counter-church which was born especially with protestantism, and which was developed with protestantism, and which is at the origin of all modern errors, which has destroyed all philosophy, and which has led us to all the errors we have known, that the Popes have condemned; liberalism, socialism, communism, modernism, sillonism 18. We are dying from them. The Popes did everything to condemn that, and now behold those who are in the chairs of those who condemned these errors are in agreement with this liberalism and ecumenism. Now we cannot accept that. And the more things become clear, the more we perceive that this program […] all these errors, were elaborated in the masonic lodges19. “

"How could it be more clear?! From now on it is the conciliar church one must obey and be faithful to , and not to the Catholic Church. This is precisely our problem. We are suspended a divinis by the conciliar church, of which we do not want to be a part. This conciliar church is a schismatic church, because it breaks with the Catholic Church of all time. It has it’s new dogmas 22, it’s new priesthood 23, it’s new institutions24, it’s new liturgy25, already condemned by the Church in many official and definitive documents. This is why the founders of the conciliar church insist on obedience to the church of today, making abstraction of the Church of yesterday, as if it didn’t exist anymore. […] The church which affirms such errors is at one and the same time heretical and schismatic. This conciliar church is therefore not Catholic. In the measure in which the Pope, the bishops, priests or faithful adhere to this new church, they separate themselves from the Catholic Church. The church of today is the true Church only in the measure in which it continues and is one with the Church of yesterday and of always. The norm for the Catholic faith is Tradition26. “

http://sedevacantist.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1201&sid=2fa34e49ea1552a48e1fc1f64386f844

Lefebvre, while not advocating sedevacantism (although I'm not sure if anticatholic popes would be really better than just simply nonpopes), and could see the danger of further splintering that goes along with it, nevertheless called it as he saw it and would leave to history how this situation would be made sense of.

And yet Archbishop Lefebvre was willing to meet with them, to try to work out proper canonical arrangements, and even to respect their office and authority. If you consider the exchange between Paul VI and Archbishop Lefebvre, you see that the latter had a great respect for the Papal office and respect for the man, even if he had vehement objections and complaints.

The only times when he did not show that submission was when that authority was clearly being used maliciously or naively to undermine the Faith, thus the man with such authority was not permitted to command that evil thing.

Proof of this is that even after the 1988 Consecrations (which this letter is a preface to), Lefebvre continued to maintain relations with Rome to the extent possible, and even said this at the end of his sermon for the 1988 Consecrations (my emphasis):

Quote:The headlines will, of course, be "Schism," "Excommunication!" as much as they want to, and, yet, we are convinced that all these accusations of which we are the object—all penalties of which we are the object are null, absolutely null and void, and of which we will fake no account, just as I took no account of the suspension, and ended up by being congratulated by the Church and by progressive churchmen. So, likewise in several years—I do not know how many—only the Good Lord knows how many years it will take for Tradition to find its rights in Rome—we will be embraced by the Roman authorities. They will thank us for having maintained the Faith in our seminaries, in our families, in civil societies, in our countries, and in our monasteries and our religious houses, for the greater glory of God and the salvation of souls.

While denouncing the evil done by progressive churchmen (out of malice or negligence), he did not reject their authority and even looked for the day when the authorities would accept the Traditionalists and recognize them as always having been perfectly Catholic.