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(06-25-2018, 07:42 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-22-2018, 10:17 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]I have a question about Adam, Eve, and why we pay for THEIR sin. In all honesty, they screwed up really bad. The entirety of human suffering is because of their disobedience. They at least had a shot in paradise. Us on the other hand are more or less born handicapped and will not get a glimpse of paradise until we suffer death. Us suffering death for Adam and Eve's disobedience just seems over the top to me when it wasn't us that was eating the dang fruit in the first place. I've heard the "well if your parents gamble the house you loose" analogy but suffering physical death hardly compares to loosing your house for 2 idiots the misbehaved eons before you were born. Any thoughts here? I know crying "its not fair" isn't going to do any good and that is not what I am doing here. I'm just trying to understand why we don't have choice in this matter.

The solution here is to look at what is natural to man and what was added to man's nature by way of gift.

Obviously if God created a man with a particular nature, He, in a certain way, owes it to creatures with that nature, as a result of his Providence and Wisdom, that this being can follow its nature in its actions. Here "fairness" is reasonable to speak of to some extent -- "When I was 10 years old, my dad is just and fair to provide me with the food I needed to survive and thrive."

If God gives extra gifts and benefits which exceed what is necessary to that nature, then these are not "owed" in any way and a free. Fairness, then, does not enter into the discussion. One cannot say, "When I turned 16 my dad was just and fair to buy me a dozen Ferraris so I could crash a few and still have a nice car."

Man, because he has the nature of a material creature, can and would suffer defects and death. Material things eventually decay. If God had created humanity in a pure state of nature, Adam would have still had use of reason and will, would still have needed to have a natural religion to his creator, could still have acted well, but eventually would die, and his end would be a purely natural state of happiness (a contemplation of God, like in a meditation), if he lived a good natural life.

But God did not create men in this state. Rather he elevated them to a supernatural end, and therefore needed to give them certain supernatural gifts to reach that end. That is Revelation and Grace. He did this, but he also have completely free gifts which corresponded to this. By Grace man's soul was ordered to God. Because his soul was in order, the passions were controlled by his intellect. And therefore it would also be fitting that his body be subject to his soul. The first is Sanctifying Grace, the latter two are the Praeternatural gifts of Integrity and Immortality.

The sin of Adam and even introduced a guilt and fault. That deserved a punishment. A fair punishment for a fault is to take away the free gifts you gave. If Johnny misbehaves, it's reasonable to take away his driving privileges. If it's a really serious fault (vehicular manslaughter), you may even permanently take away those gifts.

That's what happened to Adam and Eve. They lost those free gifts because of their fault. Such would be fair. This loss returned them to their natural state, but still with a supernatural end that was now impossible (since they freely gave away the tools to get there). That state was a wounded nature because their sin also disordered their soul and introduced blindness in their intellect, malice in their will, and weakeness and concupiscence in their passions. All of that effect was natural and fair.

It was in fact a mercy of God to give them a means to recover Sanctifying Grace and thus again have the means to reach that supernatural end, but now with difficulty. God does not restore those extra gifts, and the soul's ordering toward God by Grace no longer causes the ordering of the passion to the intellect.

Because they did not have those gifts to pass on, and Sanctifying Grace was no longer an heretitary thing, Adam and Eve passed on that wounded nature to their offspring, and thus we have to go through a processes to remove Original Sin and then spend effort to order our soul, but we still will die as we naturally would. Grace helps, and that is God's mercy helping us to do what we ought, suffer these consequences well and stay in the State of Grace, and thus die well and merit heaven, in which place our wounds are fully repaired and permanently.
Peace.....the lesson here too is for us to see and understand just how much and many are affected by one sin. (whether we see it or not)  God bless, angeltime :heart:
Everyone, please read this thread on how to post without driving everyone insane: https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/showth...?tid=81569
Lots of good thoughts here, which brings me to another question. Perhaps mankind was never meant to dwell permanently on Earth in first place? They way I've understood things is that our physical death is a consequence of sin. Was our material life always temporary here on Earth, but at least at the time of passing pre-fall there wouldn't be any fear / question as to what comes next? Rather it would be celebrated?

Of course our understanding of what the "Garden of Eden" is also has to be discussed. Is it a physical place or perhaps a higher state of being / understanding? Perhaps our "fall" is what knocked us down to where we are now?

Comparing our current state of being to a dad taking away a car is not an apples to apples comparison. If YOU do something to warrant the loss of a perk, then you deserve it. The issue here is the WE are paying the price for Adam and Eve's sin when it wasn't us that took a bite of the apple. Imagine if you wrecked your car, and your parents had your kids' cars towed away as a result. That would be an apples to apples comparison.
Peace......well, Psalm 118: vs 19 (Douay Rheims) clearly states we are "sojourners on this earth" - one passing through or a traveller. 
It is understood in other Scripture passages, that we are trying to get home and our Father is calling us.  We could look at our time here as being in a waiting room - people passing by who need help or direction while we remain in prayer until God opens the bigger door to be with Him forever in all eternity.
:heart: God bless, angeltime
(07-02-2018, 10:12 AM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]Comparing our current state of being to a dad taking away a car is not an apples to apples comparison. If YOU do something to warrant the loss of a perk, then you deserve it. The issue here is the WE are paying the price for Adam and Eve's sin when it wasn't us that took a bite of the apple. Imagine if you wrecked your car, and your parents had your kids' cars towed away as a result. That would be an apples to apples comparison.

If you wreck the car, you no longer have the car to give to your children, so they won't have one.
(07-02-2018, 10:12 AM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of good thoughts here, which brings me to another question. Perhaps mankind was never meant to dwell permanently on Earth in first place? They way I've understood things is that our physical death is a consequence of sin. Was our material life always temporary here on Earth, but at least at the time of passing pre-fall there wouldn't be any fear / question as to what comes next? Rather it would be celebrated?

Of course our understanding of what the "Garden of Eden" is also has to be discussed. Is it a physical place or perhaps a higher state of being / understanding? Perhaps our "fall" is what knocked us down to where we are now?

Comparing our current state of being to a dad taking away a car is not an apples to apples comparison. If YOU do something to warrant the loss of a perk, then you deserve it. The issue here is the WE are paying the price for Adam and Eve's sin when it wasn't us that took a bite of the apple. Imagine if you wrecked your car, and your parents had your kids' cars towed away as a result. That would be an apples to apples comparison.

Man by his nature would die, so man, like all living material creatures is not meant to live forever or permanently on Earth. As a punishment for sin, death is the return to nature from the state where this natural effect was prevented by the gift of immortality, by the removal of the gift for Adam's fault.

If there were no Original Sin, men, after a time on earth, would be translated to heaven with the gift ofiImmortality, without dying. Adam, Even and their children, after accomplishing their work vis à vis the next generation, at the time determined by God would simply be "assumed" into heaven, where they would, like the blessed see God Himself in the Beatific Vision.

If man had never been raised to a Supernatural end, he would have died and because still having an immaterial and thus immortal soul, would have naturally contemplated God much like as those in Limbo do, without seeing God Himself. Thus it would be a place of natural happiness. This is, in fact, what Aristotle suggests its man's proper end and happiness : Intellectual contemplation of God but only naturally.

The garden is a physical place, because Scripture clearly indicated it is not just mere metaphor. If it were a passing reference, then perhaps it could be symbolic, but since we have to keep the literal sense of Scripture unless it is clearly probable or certain that another meaning is intended or permitted, there is no good reason to assume that Paradise is anything but a physical place. This is particularly confirmed when in Genesis 2.15 God creates Adam and then places him in Paradise. Adam was created with the gifts and Sanctifying Grace, but placed into Paradise after his creation. Eve was created in Paradise.

While many correctly see Paradise as a symbol of the Sanctifying Grace that Adam and Eve had, and thus their expulsion as fitting given their loss of grace, all of the Fathers and the Oridinary Magisterium and the common understanding of the faithful is that the garden was a physical place. When it comes to interpreting Scripture we can easily admit fables (e.g. Judges 9.8 ff.) because they are obviously fantastical false stories meant for some moral point, we do not easily admit parables (false stories for a moral lesson which could be mistakenly taken as true) unless Scripture clearly identifies them as such, else we would never know whether a passage was a parable or the literal history. Thus an extended presentation of Paradise has to be held as a physical place.

Paul's explanation on the car is exactly the right way of looking at this. The Preternatural gifts were free gifts to Human Nature, as represented by their head, Adam. Because he was, in a sense "human nature incarnate" being the head of the human race and first man, he could lose or fix those gifts as permanent added qualities of human nature. Had Adam not sinned he would have passed the gifts to all men, who could individually lose them, but men would not lose them. If Cain had still sinned, Cain would lose the gifts, but Seth would not. Adam was in the unique position that he lost the gifts for all men. Thus death and Sanctifying Grace cannot be passed on, like the gifted car which was wrecked cannot be passed on.

We are not born with Sanctifying Grace because Adam lost it and can't pass it to us through inheritance. Nemo dat quod non habet.
MagisterMusicae Wrote:If there were no Original Sin, men, after a time on earth, would be translated to heaven with the gift ofiImmortality, without dying. Adam, Even and their children, after accomplishing their work vis à vis the next generation, at the time determined by God would simply be "assumed" into heaven, where they would, like the blessed see God Himself in the Beatific Vision.

While this is a valid theory, there is nothing to support this inference.

Perhaps God meant for Creation to be like Heaven, and He would visit now and then. Genesis mentions God visiting Adam and Eve in the garden.

Perhaps God meant for Creation to be the dwelling place of men, but men could visit Him whenever they liked.

Perhaps God meant Creation to be a test, after which, if passing, men would go on to enjoy Heaven.

It is hard to speculate what would have happened should Adam not sin, and many conclusions are possible. Additionally, what reason would God have for keeping humanity on earth for a time? If for the purpose of procreation, He Himself could just spontaneously put into being an infinate amount of human beings. Moreover, if humanity did nothing wrong, why detain them on earth for even a second, unless earth was originally meant to be a test? Adam and Eve were created knowing. They did not have to learn to walk, eat, sleep, etc. They were created knowing those concepts. If Adam had not sinned, argueably the next generation (perhaps created by God) would have no need of instruction and Adam and Eve could then proceed to Heaven after passing the test.
Daily reminders that this isn't our home:  things here don't last


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I used to find it so vexing when a new sweater would get a snag, a car would get a dent or scratch, or something nice would break.  I couldn't understand this place!  I can't seem to get things to go "right" here.  You can never "get ahead". 

I realize now that I was somehow led to believe that this was my home.  I think we all tend to feel that way as if decay and death are unnatural somehow.





St. Terese new from childhood that her home was in Heaven where her name was in the stars.






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Ooops, accidentally clicked "post reply" instead of preview post. :P

All fixed now. :)
(07-03-2018, 12:43 PM)ServusDei Wrote: [ -> ]
MagisterMusicae Wrote:If there were no Original Sin, men, after a time on earth, would be translated to heaven with the gift ofiImmortality, without dying. Adam, Even and their children, after accomplishing their work vis à vis the next generation, at the time determined by God would simply be "assumed" into heaven, where they would, like the blessed see God Himself in the Beatific Vision.

While this is a valid theory, there is nothing to support this inference.

Perhaps God meant for Creation to be like Heaven, and He would visit now and then. Genesis mentions God visiting Adam and Eve in the garden.

Perhaps God meant for Creation to be the dwelling place of men, but men could visit Him whenever they liked.

Perhaps God meant Creation to be a test, after which, if passing, men would go on to enjoy Heaven.

It is hard to speculate what would have happened should Adam not sin, and many conclusions are possible. Additionally, what reason would God have for keeping humanity on earth for a time? If for the purpose of procreation, He Himself could just spontaneously put into being an infinate amount of human beings. Moreover, if humanity did nothing wrong, why detain them on earth for even a second, unless earth was originally meant to be a test? Adam and Eve were created knowing. They did not have to learn to walk, eat, sleep, etc. They were created knowing those concepts. If Adam had not sinned, argueably the next generation (perhaps created by God) would have no need of instruction and Adam and Eve could then proceed to Heaven after passing the test.

MMs statement is that which is generally accepted among theologians. One can hardly say there is nothing to support it.

Presumably once the plan of creation was complete and the number of saints was realized then Heaven and Earth would be united. How this would occur is beyond speculation. 

In any case God created man to participate in the beatific vision for the rest of eternity. Not just get "visits".
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