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I have a question about Adam, Eve, and why we pay for THEIR sin. In all honesty, they screwed up really bad. The entirety of human suffering is because of their disobedience. They at least had a shot in paradise. Us on the other hand are more or less born handicapped and will not get a glimpse of paradise until we suffer death. Us suffering death for Adam and Eve's disobedience just seems over the top to me when it wasn't us that was eating the dang fruit in the first place. I've heard the "well if your parents gamble the house you loose" analogy but suffering physical death hardly compares to loosing your house for 2 idiots the misbehaved eons before you were born. Any thoughts here? I know crying "its not fair" isn't going to do any good and that is not what I am doing here. I'm just trying to understand why we don't have choice in this matter.
O Happy Fault which merited so great a Redeemer!

In God's economy, all things work for good.

He only wanted those who truly loved him to spend eternity with him.

How can anyone know for sure if someone really loves them?

Sacrifice.

Sacrifice is the purest form of love.

So God was able to truly show us His love by freely saving us from our doom through his sacrifice.

If we were born without original sin, we wouldn't need Him or come to truly understand and appreciate His love.

We, in turn, must show sacrificial love to Him and others to prove our love.

Sometimes our sacrificial love is shown through our choices.

Other times it is shown by humbly accepting the sufferings He chooses to allow us to endure without cursing Him and turning from Him.  Offering them up and uniting them to His cross is even better!

True love is tested.
(06-23-2018, 02:14 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: [ -> ]O Happy Fault which merited so great a Redeemer!

In God's economy, all things work for good.

He only wanted those who truly loved him to spend eternity with him.

How can anyone know for sure if someone really loves them?

Sacrifice.

Sacrifice is the purest form of love.

So God was able to truly show us His love by freely saving us from our doom through his sacrifice.

If we were born without original sin, we wouldn't need Him or come to truly understand and appreciate His love.

We, in turn, must show sacrificial love to Him and others to prove our love.

Sometimes our sacrificial love is shown through our choices.

Other times it is shown by humbly accepting the sufferings He chooses to allow us to endure without cursing Him and turning from Him.  Offering them up and uniting them to His cross is even better!

True love is tested.

How can an omniscient God need us to prove our love?
(06-23-2018, 10:24 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2018, 02:14 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: [ -> ]O Happy Fault which merited so great a Redeemer!

In God's economy, all things work for good.

He only wanted those who truly loved him to spend eternity with him.

How can anyone know for sure if someone really loves them?

Sacrifice.

Sacrifice is the purest form of love.

So God was able to truly show us His love by freely saving us from our doom through his sacrifice.

If we were born without original sin, we wouldn't need Him or come to truly understand and appreciate His love.

We, in turn, must show sacrificial love to Him and others to prove our love.

Sometimes our sacrificial love is shown through our choices.

Other times it is shown by humbly accepting the sufferings He chooses to allow us to endure without cursing Him and turning from Him.  Offering them up and uniting them to His cross is even better!

True love is tested.

How can an omniscient God need us to prove our love?
Peace.....so He can know who we truly are (with Him and not against Him and no lukewarmness or He will spit us out of His mouth) and will not do it (sin) again??  Purity..... God bless, angeltime Heart
(06-23-2018, 11:05 AM)angeltime Wrote: [ -> ]Peace.....so He can know who we truly are (with Him and not against Him and no lukewarmness or He will spit us out of His mouth) and will not do it (sin) again??  Purity..... God bless, angeltime Heart

But if he is truly omniscient, he knows all that already.  He doesn't need us to do anything in order to know.  Or does he not know us in the depths of our hearts as he has said?
(06-23-2018, 11:18 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2018, 11:05 AM)angeltime Wrote: [ -> ]Peace.....so He can know who we truly are (with Him and not against Him and no lukewarmness or He will spit us out of His mouth) and will not do it (sin) again??  Purity..... God bless, angeltime Heart

But if he is truly omniscient, he knows all that already.  He doesn't need us to do anything in order to know.  Or does he not know us in the depths of our hearts as he has said?
Peace.....I think He knows everything we are and are capable of including the outcome of our life.  Better we get on the same page WITH HIM - union - ONE WITH HIM or we cannot live in Heaven - since it is a place of perfection and purity - both of which we are not.  A lot would change quick, if we could get Lucifer and his minions baptized and converted - in their hearts.  It is not a matter of God knowing us, but US knowing God.
God bless, angeltime Heart
(06-23-2018, 11:18 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-23-2018, 11:05 AM)angeltime Wrote: [ -> ]Peace.....so He can know who we truly are (with Him and not against Him and no lukewarmness or He will spit us out of His mouth) and will not do it (sin) again??  Purity..... God bless, angeltime Heart

But if he is truly omniscient, he knows all that already.  He doesn't need us to do anything in order to know.  Or does he not know us in the depths of our hearts as he has said?

He knows but allows us to have the free will to make choices until our dying breath. 

He knows what we will choose and will give us as many chances, or years, necessary to make our choice.
(06-23-2018, 02:14 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: [ -> ]O Happy Fault which merited so great a Redeemer!

In God's economy, all things work for good.

He only wanted those who truly loved him to spend eternity with him.

How can anyone know for sure if someone really loves them?

Sacrifice.

Sacrifice is the purest form of love.

So God was able to truly show us His love by freely saving us from our doom through his sacrifice.

So you are saying God wanted us to tempt Him? I thought we aren't supposed to do that.

(06-23-2018, 02:14 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: [ -> ]If we were born without original sin, we wouldn't need Him or come to truly understand and appreciate His love.

So you are saying Original Sin was part of God's will? That sounds rather heretical to me. To say sin is a requirement for our spiritual growth is obscene, no offense. The angels didn't seem to "need sin" to know God's love.

(06-23-2018, 02:14 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: [ -> ]We, in turn, must show sacrificial love to Him and others to prove our love.

Sometimes our sacrificial love is shown through our choices.

Other times it is shown by humbly accepting the sufferings He chooses to allow us to endure without cursing Him and turning from Him.  Offering them up and uniting them to His cross is even better!

True love is tested.

This is largely an after thought, but does not answer the question why WE suffer for ADAM AND EVE's disobedience when we don't "freely accept death" like Jesus did for us. I don't recall saying I will accept sin and death for Adam and Eve. Did you?

(06-23-2018, 02:14 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: [ -> ]He knows but allows us to have the free will to make choices until our dying breath. 

He knows what we will choose and will give us as many chances, or years, necessary to make our choice.

All of this is post-fall though. The original question is why are we condemned for what Adam and Eve did? If they wanted to be jerks, fine. Why should we be born condemned though when they weren't?
Well, I'm not a theologian, so I can't explain this as definitively as many here, but this is how I understand it.

If we were born in the Garden, we wouldn't need baptism because we wouldn't need a Savior.

The sin of Adam and Eve is what caused mankind to be expelled from the Garden forever.

Because God sacrificed His only Son we are able to return to union with him and become his adopted sons and daughters.

The angels are of a different species.  They don't have concupiscence and are purely one way or the other, not a mixed bag like us.

Also, they are not able to become sons and daughters of God.  That is a privilege unique to us, a different way of relating to God altogether.

It would be wonderful to be an angel, but they do "envy" our ability to partake in Holy Communion and become one with God.

So "Why do we have to suffer when it's all their fault?"

It's a part of the bigger plan, which is even better than the original plan.

Adam and Eve got us kicked out, and because of that, we are able to create this unique relationship of mutual love which is demonstrated through self-sacrifice and obedience.

Quote:So you are saying God wanted us to tempt Him? I thought we aren't supposed to do that.

No, I'm saying that God wanted to demonstrate the depth of His love to us and forgiveness and sacrifice for those who don't merit it one bit is the best way to demonstrate that.


Quote:So you are saying Original Sin was part of God's will? That sounds rather heretical to me. To say sin is a requirement for our spiritual growth is obscene, no offense. The angels didn't seem to "need sin" to know God's love.

No.  I'm saying that God gave us the choice to love Him or not.  He knew because of man's weakness how that would turn out, so He had a backup plan in place which is even better than the original plan.  

Quote:This is largely an after thought, but does not answer the question why WE suffer for ADAM AND EVE's disobedience when we don't "freely accept death" like Jesus did for us. I don't recall saying I will accept sin and death for Adam and Eve. Did you?

We have free will.   We can reject God's plan and commit suicide.  The Freemasons made it legal to do so. (Go figure)

All sin affects other people by bringing evil into the world.  Adam's sin, your sin, my sin, some to greater or lesser degrees.  Why do I have to suffer from your sin?  Why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins?

We can accept the sufferings he allows in our life by offering them up and continuing to love and obey God or we can reject them by becoming bitter and wallowing in self-pity and envy and turning to a life of sin since life sucks anyway and it's not my fault.

Here is the best explanation of how to accept sin and death that came from Adam and Eve.

I read it once a year and my son just started to read it to me last week. Smile


.
[url=http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/Fr.%20Jean%20Baptiste%20Saint-Jure%20and%20St.%20Claude%20de%20la%20Columbiere%20-%20Trustful%20Surrender%20to%20Divine%20Providence.pdf][/url]
(06-22-2018, 10:17 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]I have a question about Adam, Eve, and why we pay for THEIR sin. In all honesty, they screwed up really bad. The entirety of human suffering is because of their disobedience. They at least had a shot in paradise. Us on the other hand are more or less born handicapped and will not get a glimpse of paradise until we suffer death. Us suffering death for Adam and Eve's disobedience just seems over the top to me when it wasn't us that was eating the dang fruit in the first place. I've heard the "well if your parents gamble the house you loose" analogy but suffering physical death hardly compares to loosing your house for 2 idiots the misbehaved eons before you were born. Any thoughts here? I know crying "its not fair" isn't going to do any good and that is not what I am doing here. I'm just trying to understand why we don't have choice in this matter.

The solution here is to look at what is natural to man and what was added to man's nature by way of gift.

Obviously if God created a man with a particular nature, He, in a certain way, owes it to creatures with that nature, as a result of his Providence and Wisdom, that this being can follow its nature in its actions. Here "fairness" is reasonable to speak of to some extent -- "When I was 10 years old, my dad is just and fair to provide me with the food I needed to survive and thrive."

If God gives extra gifts and benefits which exceed what is necessary to that nature, then these are not "owed" in any way and a free. Fairness, then, does not enter into the discussion. One cannot say, "When I turned 16 my dad was just and fair to buy me a dozen Ferraris so I could crash a few and still have a nice car."

Man, because he has the nature of a material creature, can and would suffer defects and death. Material things eventually decay. If God had created humanity in a pure state of nature, Adam would have still had use of reason and will, would still have needed to have a natural religion to his creator, could still have acted well, but eventually would die, and his end would be a purely natural state of happiness (a contemplation of God, like in a meditation), if he lived a good natural life.

But God did not create men in this state. Rather he elevated them to a supernatural end, and therefore needed to give them certain supernatural gifts to reach that end. That is Revelation and Grace. He did this, but he also have completely free gifts which corresponded to this. By Grace man's soul was ordered to God. Because his soul was in order, the passions were controlled by his intellect. And therefore it would also be fitting that his body be subject to his soul. The first is Sanctifying Grace, the latter two are the Praeternatural gifts of Integrity and Immortality.

The sin of Adam and even introduced a guilt and fault. That deserved a punishment. A fair punishment for a fault is to take away the free gifts you gave. If Johnny misbehaves, it's reasonable to take away his driving privileges. If it's a really serious fault (vehicular manslaughter), you may even permanently take away those gifts.

That's what happened to Adam and Eve. They lost those free gifts because of their fault. Such would be fair. This loss returned them to their natural state, but still with a supernatural end that was now impossible (since they freely gave away the tools to get there). That state was a wounded nature because their sin also disordered their soul and introduced blindness in their intellect, malice in their will, and weakeness and concupiscence in their passions. All of that effect was natural and fair.

It was in fact a mercy of God to give them a means to recover Sanctifying Grace and thus again have the means to reach that supernatural end, but now with difficulty. God does not restore those extra gifts, and the soul's ordering toward God by Grace no longer causes the ordering of the passion to the intellect.

Because they did not have those gifts to pass on, and Sanctifying Grace was no longer an heretitary thing, Adam and Eve passed on that wounded nature to their offspring, and thus we have to go through a processes to remove Original Sin and then spend effort to order our soul, but we still will die as we naturally would. Grace helps, and that is God's mercy helping us to do what we ought, suffer these consequences well and stay in the State of Grace, and thus die well and merit heaven, in which place our wounds are fully repaired and permanently.
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