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It seems many Catholics either don't know or have forgotten the reason why the Catholic Church is undergoing Its worst persecution in history. Our Lady clearly outlined what we need to do to remedy the situation. A quick summary of what our Lady said we all must do:

1.       Stop Offending God
2.       Prayer (5 decades of the Rosary daily)
3.       Make Sacrifices (in reparation for the offenses committed against God and to save sinners)
4.       Wear the Brown Scapular
5.       Communions of Reparation on the Five First Saturdays (to gain the grace of final perseverance at one's death and to console Mary's wounded Heart)
 
For Those Who Do Their Part
 
They will gain many benefits and will be granted peace in their hearts and in their families. They will gain graces to overcome sin and will help to save many souls from hell. They will appease God and console the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and will receive numerous graces. And when enough souls have responded to Our Lady of Fatima's requests, then the collegial consecration of Russia will finally take place, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace in the world.
 
For Those Who Do Not Do Their Part
 
If individuals do not respond to the requests made by Heaven at Fatima, they will have a terrible price to pay. The world will be afflicted with wars, famine, the martyrdom of the good, persecution of the Church and the Holy Father, the annihilation of nations, and apostasy from the one true Faith. Russia will continue to spread her errors (Communism). Yet even worse than these material chastisements, they will be in grave danger of losing their souls for all eternity in hell.


“Only I can help you” (Our Lady of Fatima)
Ah here's what I really don't like about alot of these messages (or at least the way in which many are presented). They seem to say "do these devotional practices or the world's gonna fall apart and your soul will be in danger of damnation." hmmm?

Example: the brown scapular is quite a bit more than wearing brown wool around your shoulders, it implies a real connection to the Carmelite order, and the practice of that sort of spirituality. That is not something you can universally ask of people.

We are all called to keep from sin, to pray (not necessarily the rosary however), and to make sacrifices. However, things like the rosary, scapulars, and first Saturday devotions are not universal precepts and it seems to me that they really only appeal to certain types of people.

I'm not hating on Fatima (I love the general message), or the goodness of these practices for many people, but when the extra devotional parts are advertised as being necessary for salvation it makes me wonder.
(08-02-2018, 01:32 PM)Florus Wrote: [ -> ]Ah here's what I really don't like about alot of these messages (or at least the way in which many are presented). They seem to say "do these devotional practices or the world's gonna fall apart and your soul will be in danger of damnation." hmmm?

Example: the brown scapular is quite a bit more than wearing brown wool around your shoulders, it implies a real connection to the Carmelite order, and the practice of that sort of spirituality. That is not something you can universally ask of people.

We are all called to keep from sin, to pray (not necessarily the rosary however), and to make sacrifices. However, things like the rosary, scapulars, and first Saturday devotions are not universal precepts and it seems to me that they really only appeal to certain types of people.

I'm not hating on Fatima (I love the general message), or the goodness of these practices for many people, but when the extra devotional parts are advertised as being necessary for salvation it makes me wonder.

You make some good points.  These things are not necessary as you said.

However, it seems clear that she is telling us we will be needing extra graces since the diabolical disorientation will lead even the elect away.

She is offering us those extra graces and preparing us as any good mother would.
(08-02-2018, 01:32 PM)Florus Wrote: [ -> ]Ah here's what I really don't like about alot of these messages (or at least the way in which many are presented). They seem to say "do these devotional practices or the world's gonna fall apart and your soul will be in danger of damnation." hmmm?

Example: the brown scapular is quite a bit more than wearing brown wool around your shoulders, it implies a real connection to the Carmelite order, and the practice of that sort of spirituality. That is not something you can universally ask of people.

We are all called to keep from sin, to pray (not necessarily the rosary however), and to make sacrifices. However, things like the rosary, scapulars, and first Saturday devotions are not universal precepts and it seems to me that they really only appeal to certain types of people.

I'm not hating on Fatima (I love the general message), or the goodness of these practices for many people, but when the extra devotional parts are advertised as being necessary for salvation it makes me wonder.
 
There are only two scenarios regarding the miracle at Fatima:
  1. It really occurred - in which case you should love and practice the message with your whole heart  and to the very last drop. 
  2. It never occurred - in which case the Church mistakenly approved of it, as did all the popes since 1917. You should then completely ignore the message and the Church.
The Catholic Church officially approved of the miracle at Fatima as worthy of belief in 1930, and all popes have approved of it. The miraculous phenomena associated with it alone makes it undeniable. To say we need to pray "not necessarily the rosary" is to doubt the message at Fatima and the countless encyclicals where popes have recommended the Rosary as one of the next best things to the Mass itself.

I've been wearing a brown scapular my whole life and can tell you there is nothing that you need to "practice" with regard to the Carmelite order.
(08-02-2018, 05:35 PM)pabbie Wrote: [ -> ]There are only two scenarios regarding the miracle at Fatima:
  1. It really occurred - in which case you should love and practice the message with your whole heart  and to the very last drop. 
  2. It never occurred - in which case the Church mistakenly approved of it, as did all the popes since 1917. You should then completely ignore the message and the Church.
The Catholic Church officially approved of the miracle at Fatima as worthy of belief in 1930, and all popes have approved of it. The miraculous phenomena associated with it alone makes it undeniable. To say we need to pray "not necessarily the rosary" is to doubt the message at Fatima and the countless encyclicals where popes have recommended the Rosary as one of the next best things to the Mass itself.

I've been wearing a brown scapular my whole life and can tell you there is nothing that you need to "practice" with regard to the Carmelite order.

Few issues here.

You didn't say it, but it seems like you are equating public and private revelation. One requires complete assent of faith, the other does not.

I believe that in various times post-revelation God has spoken to his saints, however, I know that the recordings of these instances are not infallible and not universally binding. If I did, I could say "well God said to St. Arsenius that the way of salvation is through seclusion and monastic asceticism, so that means we HAVE TO love and practice the message with our whole heart and to the very last drop." Perhaps in a sense, but certainly not literally. God's message to St. Arsenius has a very different tone than the Fatima ones, but I think you could take it to the same extreme and universality as people do with Fatima if you tried.

Not denying the power of the rosary, I pray it myself, but I don't think it's universally binding. Just think, there are millions of Christians who's tradition has never involved the rosary, and many more millions who lived before it came about. 

The brown scapular is a mini Carmelite habit so I can assure you that it does imply connection to that order, and not just to their fashion!
(08-02-2018, 06:09 PM)Florus Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-02-2018, 05:35 PM)pabbie Wrote: [ -> ]There are only two scenarios regarding the miracle at Fatima:
  1. It really occurred - in which case you should love and practice the message with your whole heart  and to the very last drop. 
  2. It never occurred - in which case the Church mistakenly approved of it, as did all the popes since 1917. You should then completely ignore the message and the Church.
The Catholic Church officially approved of the miracle at Fatima as worthy of belief in 1930, and all popes have approved of it. The miraculous phenomena associated with it alone makes it undeniable. To say we need to pray "not necessarily the rosary" is to doubt the message at Fatima and the countless encyclicals where popes have recommended the Rosary as one of the next best things to the Mass itself.

I've been wearing a brown scapular my whole life and can tell you there is nothing that you need to "practice" with regard to the Carmelite order.

Few issues here.

You didn't say it, but it seems like you are equating public and private revelation. One requires complete assent of faith, the other does not.

I believe that in various times post-revelation God has spoken to his saints, however, I know that the recordings of these instances are not infallible and not universally binding. If I did, I could say "well God said to St. Arsenius that the way of salvation is through seclusion and monastic asceticism, so that means we HAVE TO love and practice the message with our whole heart and to the very last drop." Perhaps in a sense, but certainly not literally. God's message to St. Arsenius has a very different tone than the Fatima ones, but I think you could take it to the same extreme and universality as people do with Fatima if you tried.

Not denying the power of the rosary, I pray it myself, but I don't think it's universally binding. Just think, there are millions of Christians who's tradition has never involved the rosary, and many more millions who lived before it came about. 

The brown scapular is a mini Carmelite habit so I can assure you that it does imply connection to that order, and not just to their fashion!
 

I'm aware of how private revelation works. It may not be "binding", but it doesn't have to be. Who wouldn't believe in Fatima anyway? It's the greatest public miracle in the history of the Catholic Church and atheists cannot even deny it without looking foolish. And how many encyclicals and other writings in the Church have recommended it because of its power?

The message from Fatima is very serious and stern. Looking at what the Virgin Mary said there, you're actually contributing to the problem by not taking it seriously - she said for those who didn't listen it would lead to further persecution of the Church. It's like a deserter on the battlefield; for every one that exists, the battle will take that much longer.

Neither I nor any Catholic I know has done anything special in their lives relating to the Carmelite Order just because we are wearing a brown scapular. You shouldn't be afraid to be associated with the Order, especially given that there is nothing required of the person wearing the brown scapular other than to wear it.
Private revelations may not be doctrine but when it comes to something like Fatima unless you have a very good reason it's rather presumptuous to disbelieve in it. I mean when it has as much support as it does from a great many popes, bishops, etc. It seems rather prideful to deny it without a very very good reason.

As to the brown scapular it does indeed imply a certain connection to carmelite spirituality and being enrolled gives you a share in all their prayers and masses etc but it doesnt imply any special duties etc.

The idea of non-carmelites being enrolled in the brown scapular has been around for ages. For example St John Bosco was buried with his and when he was exhumed his scapular was incorrupt.

St Dominic is believed to have said that the world would be saved by means of the Rosary and brown scapular.

As to the Rosary, there have been plenty of other apparitions, visions, and otherwise stating that it is Our Lady's explicit wish that people pray the Rosary. 

None of this may not be binding under pain of sin but personally I don't think I'm worthy enough to disagree with centuries of wisdom from saints and popes.
(08-02-2018, 01:32 PM)Florus Wrote: [ -> ]Example: the brown scapular is quite a bit more than wearing brown wool around your shoulders, it implies a real connection to the Carmelite order, and the practice of that sort of spirituality. 
Not true, as much as I wish it could be. Being enroled in the Scapular does, indeed, make you a part of the Carmelite Family, but it doesn't require practicing Carmelite spirituality. For instance (at least in the old days) I'm sure most Jesuits were enrolled in the Brown Scapular. It was never implied or suggested that they should replace the Ignatian spirituality of their Institute with Carmelite methods.

The Sulpicians, Benedictines and many others come to mind, all of which have spiritualities specific to their Order or Institute, especially the Montfortian Family's spirituality. Whilst they emphasise the Blessed Mother and devotions to Her, they have much more in common with the Sulpicians, probably because St Louis-Marie was formed in the seminary founded by the man who also founded the Sulpicians, Jean-Jacques Olier.
(08-03-2018, 02:08 AM)Dominicus Wrote: [ -> ]Private revelations may not be doctrine but when it comes to something like Fatima unless you have a very good reason it's rather presumptuous to disbelieve in it. I mean when it has as much support as it does from a great many popes, bishops, etc. It seems rather prideful to deny it without a very very good reason.

As to the brown scapular it does indeed imply a certain connection to carmelite spirituality and being enrolled gives you a share in all their prayers and masses etc but it doesnt imply any special duties etc.

The idea of non-carmelites being enrolled in the brown scapular has been around for ages. For example St John Bosco was buried with his and when he was exhumed his scapular was incorrupt.

I find there's just too many private revelations to hold a strict view of them, if we are in some way held to them 100% literally you could spend a lifetime sifting through them.

The message of reparation and prayer in Fatima is perennial and certainly universal, the rosary and scapular can be a way to achieve that, but I think it's wrong to say if a Christian doesn't practice all those devotions he is against the spirit of what was called for, especially for non-latin Christians, or those who's temperament just doesn't find this kind of devotional stuff beneficial. 

The scapular is one of those things where finding scholarly work is very difficult, the writings surrounding it are more often than not devotional and not very reliable. However, I have always heard of some vague obligations surrounding being enrolled in it that go beyond the normal duties of Christians. A good paragraph here (http://www.meditationsfromcarmel.com/con...catechesis) says: 

"A person who wears the scapular and practices the spirituality of the Carmelite Order has an affiliation, loose as it may be, to the Carmelite family and so shares in the graces traditionally associated with the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. However, simply to wear the scapular without accepting the responsibilities attached to it would be to reduce this precious sacramental to the status of a charm or good-luck piece."

So what are the obligations and responsibilities so often spoken of? I fail to see how simply having 100% brown wool around your shoulders guarantees you anything without practice.
The question I think with Fatima isn't necessarily the miracle or whether it happened, but rather how accurate or binding whatever the children said came from Our Blessed Mother. Many of the messages were scattered. For example the consecration of Russia wasn't actually told to Lucia until 1929, many years after the fact. The first five Saturday devotion is asked for in 1917, but the promises were related many years later. These are disconnected from the Fatima event of 1917. 

That said, the practices of the devotions associated with Fatima surely are useful and may have even been asked for/recommended by our Lord and Our Lady. However, just like with many other devotions I can't imagine that they are so binding as if other devotions now have no value compared to these or that only these very devotions will prevent bad things from happening rather than just a universal repentance and turn to God from the general population.

In terms of the Consecration to Russia it's been debated a million times and whether God has given the Church that responsibility to do this one thing that it's too chicken s*** to do can be debated all day.
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