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With the world wide opening of so much corruption, there is obviously something broken within how the Church does business.

I think we are past the point of blaming it solely on Satan attacking the Church, something is just dysfunctional. 

We watched a special last nite on the abuse and cover up issue and it's was appalling and shocking still.  They had a priest that was also a cannon lawyer on that stated that a good part of the problem is mandatory celibacy.  It's not about the priests not having sex, but rather these points:

1. Many good candidates are not ever considered

2. The call to celibacy and call to the priesthood are not tied together - they are different callings

3. The Church should have a balance of both celibate and married clergy - balance is key

I'll have to find his name, but this priest / cannon lawyer was excellent.  

It's clear to me that ending mandatory celibacy is part of ending the problem.  Until that changes my hope for the Church being repaired is close to zero.

Why is this such a hard sell in the face of this meltdown?
(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]With the world wide opening of so much corruption, there is obviously something broken within how the Church does business.

I think we are past the point of blaming it solely on Satan attacking the Church, something is just dysfunctional. 

I agree in the sense that there is something dysfunction in the human element of the Church, but not in the Church itself. The abuse and cover-ups are human actions, yet are in complete contradiction to Church law.

Quote:We watched a special last nite on the abuse and cover up issue and it's was appalling and shocking still.  They had a priest that was also a cannon lawyer on that stated that a good part of the problem is mandatory celibacy.  It's not about the priests not having sex, but rather these points:

1. Many good candidates are not ever considered

2. The call to celibacy and call to the priesthood are not tied together - they are different callings

3. The Church should have a balance of both celibate and married clergy - balance is key

I'll have to find his name, but this priest / cannon lawyer was excellent.  

It's clear to me that ending mandatory celibacy is part of ending the problem.  Until that changes my hope for the Church being repaired is close to zero.

Why is this such a hard sell in the face of this meltdown?

The main problem I have with this argument is that a) it completely ignores the fidelity of the vast majority of celibate priests, and b) it fails to take into account non-celibate institutions that have had a problem with sexual abuse, essentially linking celibacy to likelihood to become an abusive perv. If ending celibacy were a part of the problem, what excuse do public schools, Boy Scouts, other denominations, etc have?
The celibacy thing has been talked to death. Total sexual continence is the apostolic tradition, period, the end. There is nothing wrong with it -- and everything wrong with changing it. Leave the priests alone.
I think there are many issues we can discuss that point to flaws in the Church and draw our own conclusions as to how it can be fixed.  The problem with that is it can convince us that we know better.  Hmmm, biting the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil comes to mind.

Over the centuries we have seen many attempts to correct the problems, hence, Protestantism as well as a direct attempt within to reform the Church via Vatican II and the result has been a disaster.  Problems still exist and look what else happened;  "go to Church when you want", shorts and tshirt attire, less focus on the Sacrifice of Jesus and worship of God, and the list goes on.

So it appears that in our fallen state we think we have the answers but, in reality, all we are doing is telling God "I know better than You".
Everytime I hear the word "balance" being thrown in whenever someone wants to change tradition, I hear Satan giggling maniacally.

First off the priest abuse is mostly a homosexual problem, not a celibacy problem. To say that we should have married priests because it will end this crisis, is basically trying to solve a problem by ignoring it and providing a solution to a non-existent problem.

There are numerous adultery and sex scandals with Protestant ministers, it's just only local newspapers only care if a UCC minister gets caught having an affair.

Also in your first point about the problem trying to peddle married preists, if it is because good men are rejected by the seminary, how would having married men change this?

Also we have married deacons who are just as bad as the Fr James Martin's, so I fail to see how uncelibate priests will make things better.

My answer is this, if you want married priests, go become an Episcopalian heretic and join that dying institution. The Church has enough problems than to add more to Her with ending the celibacy requirements.

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(09-17-2018, 12:58 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]First off the priest abuse is mostly a homosexual problem, not a celibacy problem.  To say that we should have married priests because it will end this crisis, is basically trying to solve a problem by ignoring it and providing a solution to a non-existent problem.

Oh, but Austen, you forget that marrying cures homosexuality. And pedophilia! And not marrying causes both. It's true. For realz. Men who aren't married by the age of 22 are always scrounging around for boys, the younger the better. As soon as they marry, all that goes away.
 
Quote:There are numerous adultery and sex scandals with Protestant ministers, it's just only local newspapers only care if a UCC minister gets caught having an affair. 
 
-- but -- but they can marry! You're not making any sense!

Seriously, the key is to get straight about homosexuality (no pun intended), to ensure a culture in which homosexuals can be out of the closet and unashamed for having a disorder so they won't use the seminary as a hide-out -- and to put in place strictly orthodox "gatekeepers" who recruit for sold, orthodox, chaste young men while weeding out homosexuals, the immature, the addiction-prone, the mentally ill, etc.
(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]We watched a special last nite on the abuse and cover up issue and it's was appalling and shocking still.  They had a priest that was also a cannon lawyer on that stated that a good part of the problem is mandatory celibacy.

I suspect this was not EWTN, and the priest was selected specifically because he advocates married clergy.

(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]Many good candidates are not ever considered

If they present themselves, they would be considered. The greater part of the problem (born out by the statistics) is that men are not offering themselves as candidates. That's always the first step. One cannot consider someone who does not first choose to be considered. And as soon as the notion of the priesthood as primarily a sacrificial office was downplayed there was a massive departure of priests from the priesthood and a huge reduction in candidates.

Seminaries were booming in 1950, they are not today. That is not because somehow the lack of options for a married clergy intervened.

(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]The call to celibacy and call to the priesthood are not tied together - they are different callings

Not in the Latin Church.

(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]The Church should have a balance of both celibate and married clergy - balance is key

The Church has never had such a "balance" before, so why is it so "key" now?

(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]I'll have to find his name, but this priest / cannon lawyer was excellent.

If he said what you quote, he's neither.

(09-17-2018, 11:30 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]It's clear to me that ending mandatory celibacy is part of ending the problem.  Until that changes my hope for the Church being repaired is close to zero.

Why is this such a hard sell in the face of this meltdown?

Because it has nothing to do with the problem. It's a non sequitur pushed by the liberals who try to make a tenuous connection between the sexual scandals and marriage, which, as has been pointed out, has no correlation.

If the lack of married clergy was causative, then perhaps an argument could be made, but that simply is not the case.

It's the equivalent of saying : People are starving because food prices are high, and that is because there are not enough farmers producing food, therefore we should nuke Russia.
It's odd - that in the earliest Church there were married priests, bishops, and even married popes. But the thought of reconsidering it is just off the table?

The Orthodox have a mix of both married and celibate priests - as it's not mandatory - and they don't seem to be having this same issue, which is a global problem for the RCC.
By calling for married priests you are, in effect, calling for an end to homosexual priests.  If the problem isn't homosexual behavior, then there is no need for married priests.
.
The problem:  priests having sex outside of marriage.  Priests violating their vows.  Priests having sex with juveniles who,  because of their age, cannot consent.  Priests abusing their position and power.
.

Solution:  don't sign up for the priesthood if you can't keep your vow of celibacy.  If you are a priest, and can't control yourself, get out of the priesthood.
(09-17-2018, 07:04 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]It's odd - that in the earliest Church there were married priests, bishops, and even married popes.  But the thought of reconsidering it is just off the table?

The Orthodox have a mix of both married and celibate priests - as it's not mandatory - and they don't seem to be having this same issue, which is not a global problem for the RCC.

The Orthodox are not a good model for comparison with the Catholic Church in themselves. It remains to be seen whether their present practice dates to before or after their schism. You seem to presume in your analysis here.

Secondly, the Orthodox do have sexual scandals. They are just not newsworthy. This is for three reasons : 

  1. The Orthodox are a small minority of those who claim to be "Christian" (about 12% vs 50% for Catholics); 
  2. Roman Catholic clergy, being mostly celibate and expected to be, any accusation of sexual problems means scandal (e.g. a married Orthodox priest committing adultery would not garner headlines, but a Catholic priest who fornicated with a woman would be big headlines)
  3. The target is the Catholic Church, since it's the Church of Christ.
And the Orthodox also cite a derth of vocations. A 1999 meeting of the "Orthodox Church in America" said that most of their 100 seminarians at the time were converts, and that the Orthodox Church itself was not producing home-grown vocations, despite allowing married clergy.

Add to it that most Orthodox clergy only moonlight as priests, usually working a day-job where the priesthood is a second job.

To the first point, however, yes, in the early Church there were married priests, deacons, bishops and even Popes.

There were 7 Popes that history shows good evidence were married, including St Peter. None had children after they became priests, bishops or Pope. St Peter, St Felix III, and St Hormisdas, Clement IV and Honorius IV were all widowers. One was married and forced by political pressure to accept the papacy at 79 or 80 years old (his wife and daughter lived with him and given his advanced age it is perfectly reasonably to accept that he followed the Latin mandate of continence after receiving orders, if not simply due to his age). The last of these was married young and had three sons before becoming a priest, but not much is known about his wife, so he may have been widowed.

So, the Pope argument doesn't work. There were only two Popes who may have been married as Pope, and then no evidence that they did not follow the obligation of continence after their ordination.

As was explained before, the Latin custom of perpetual continence was a force of circumstances and celibacy became the rule because of the Jewish and Apostolic tradition that a priest, if married, had to forego relations with his wife for a period of time before he would perform liturgical acts. (Hence why Jewish priests were ordered to live at the temple away from their families during their year of temple service). Similarly the Christian priest had to refrain from relations with his wife before offering Mass. In the East Mass was not said by every priest every day, but just one of the many priests. In the West, Mass was said by every priest every day. So in the West perpetual continence was obliged by the daily Mass each priest said, and therefore celibacy was eventually required to guarantee this because of abuses as early as the Council of Elvira, and repeated by many other local councils in the West ordering the exact same celibacy.

If we want to return to the "early Church" then it has to be wholesale, which means that if priests can marry and want to not remain perpetually continent then they need to stop offering Mass every day and rules set out for when they can have relations. This would mean you'd get a lot of priests, but few that could minister to you.

The Latin setup is better : more priest who can dedicate their whole life to the faithful, and thus be ready to offer the sacraments at all times, and say Mass every day.

But then if we're going to do that we should also return to other early practices, like the black fasts, public penances, absolution for grave sins only once in your life, all-night vigils for the major feasts, many more holy days of obligation, mandatory hours of sermons. And we must abandon things like Eucharistic Adoration and Benediction, many of those private devotions, instrumental music in the church ... We shouldn't be picking and choosing ...

Methinks that proponents of married clergy aren't willing to conform to the early Church practices in any meaningful way.

Married clergy is a solution searching for a problem.
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