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Hi Fisheaters!

I am wondering what the Church's teaching is in regards to admitting homosexuals into seminary. What is the tradition and where is it written? It seems obvious to me that it should not be permitted though I am a convert and regard myself as generally uninformed.  Thank you.
You can reference this document from 2005: Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders.

To quote: "In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly "respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture".
That seems quite clear, except for the "deep seated tendncies." I wonder how that is defined? Would some who identifies their self as homosexual be regarded as having deep seated tendencies? Thank you!
There is no "teaching" in the sense of a Magisterial decree. The matter is one of discipline, touching on morals.

The disciplinary policy of the Church is that men who are or have been active homosexuals, or those who have homosexual inclinations which are more than just passing attractions (e.g. have resulted in at least internal sins on an habitual basis), must be barred from the seminary and Orders.

I think that would qualify as "deep seated." The fact that an inclination has resulted in habitual sin, external or internal. Without external sin, perhaps a very long period of proof where internal sin is avoided could mean that the tendency is not "deep seated." The standard will always have to be somewhat subjective, but I would guess that's about as objective as one can get : has the tendency resulted in more than just a one-off sin.

This is principally for their own salvation. If someone has a disordered inclination, the placing them in a situation where they are exposed to more and graver occasions for grave sin is immoral. Just as we would keep a pedophile sex offender away from a school (for his own good as well as the children), the Church says that a man who has a disordered attraction to men must stay away from an situation in which he would be around unmarried men in a environment that could promote his disordered inclinations to sinful levels.

Often the modern concern is over the welfare of the victims (thus vindictive punishment), but proper punishments also are for the good of the offender as well (medicinal).
(10-08-2018, 03:00 PM)DannyboyTenereFidemVeram Wrote: [ -> ]That seems quite clear, except for the "deep seated tendncies." I wonder how that is defined? Would some who identifies their self as homosexual be regarded as having deep seated tendencies? Thank you!

 Exactly, what is " deep seated tendncies " , does the candidate have to talk with a lisp, and have a hand on his hip while he talks ? does he have to skip instead of walk ? hold hands an kiss other men on the cheek ? what exactly is the deffinition ?

There is no way to exactly find out what those deep seated tendencies are other than to spy on students while they are in the Seminary, and people are well aware and do keep an eye on seminarians, they just do not announce it. Everyone knows where the strip clubs are in town, and the gay clubs, and people can not help but to gossip, eventually something slips, and that is enough at that point to reach someone who in turn will send someone to follow said individual.  and investigate.   

Other questions that arise is if someone admits to being homosexual, then the questions go to, when and how long was you last relationship, are you sexually active, when was the last time you were sexaully active if you ever were. and are you able to refrain from this broad sense of homosexual tendencies.

Same thing for the military, there was a dont ask dont tell policy and before that was no homosexuals allowed in the military. How exactly was anyone to know ? People find out, from observation, and gossip. Now homosexuals are allowed in the military to serve openly. And why not.  BUT it stops there at comparison. 

The problem that still arises in comparison, and it goes for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals, is gaining this sense of power over someone, and being corrupted by ones desires or sin, and acting on it and then betraying their authoraty and position of power. 

Obviously the Church can not come out publicly and say no homosexuals ever allowed again in the Priesthood. That would be a P.R nightmare.  Plus again how would anyone know ? what exactly is a " test " to determine ?

Homosexuality in the priesthood, wouldnt be a problem, if Reports of sexual abuse by priests because they are and were still priests FIRST, it doesnt go, HOMOSEXUAL FIRST, then PRIEST.    If the reports were acknowledge and handled by both the Church and then turned over to the police to investigate in unison at the time.  This issue wouldnt be so dark and morbid as it is. This problem existed well before Pope Francis, Pope Francis is taking the brunt of it, for not being a " Normal Pope " and for playing his part as he did in the problem. The Church is now in a clean up mode, and playing the political clean up game, statements of, oh it was the devil are popping up all over, well granted the devil played a part, but as we all know, the devil cant force us to do anything, we have the freedom to choose.  The devil is a lot weaker than he is powerful.  But does weild temptation like a deadly weapon.  any how in my diocese we just had a statement read of how our diocese has put all it's priests in some kinda training , along with volunteers and etc, and im like bravo ,  it is all just too little too late.   This is a deep scar that wont heal any time soon.  An the political system that runs the church is the major blame taking 90% to 10% from what the devil weilded.   These issues could have been addressed and solved decades ago.

But to think that Homosexuals wont still seep into the priesthood is a waste of time. Plenty of Catholics out there who have same sex attraction, that are being taught that it is a sin and can be " fixed " and buy into it, and work with religious or clergy to " fix" their tendencies, and the cycle and just keeps going and plenty of homosexual Catholics out there who are male and female that have to hide their orientation out of fear. 

An then the discussion of Natural law pops up, yet, can't answer why homosexuality has been around just as long as heterosexuals  nor come close to finding any logical or religious answer as to why God would create humanity with a homosexual orientation.

 A crime takes place or improper relationships happen in the priesthood, address and report them immediately stop hiding them. Be it Homosexual or Heterosexual, plenty of heterosexual priests are having illict relationships with women and it doesn't get reported. Why ? Because they are not abusing children. It just becomes scandalous and swept under the rug.
So to be clear...Homosexuals are not allowed to become priests, per teaching, even though there is no clear way to utterly prevent it?
If you are an honest person with homosexual tendencies you will avoid places where you must live with men and live your life chastely in another career.
(10-08-2018, 11:35 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]If you are an honest person with homosexual tendencies you will avoid places where you must live with men and live your life chastely in another career.

And generally, if a seminary is interest in forming good men, they will demand of them a life of such rigor and discipline coupled with close supervision (i.e. no freedom to wander about as if they were just a college student), that a man with "deep seated tendencies" will not long last.

Part of the reason that the seminaries have let such men through is because they have been turned over to superiors who let the seminarians act like college kids studying philosophy and theology and countenanced bad behavior without sending such men away.
(10-08-2018, 05:57 PM)originalscreenname Wrote: [ -> ]An then the discussion of Natural law pops up, yet, can't answer why homosexuality has been around just as long as heterosexuals  nor come close to finding any logical or religious answer as to why God would create humanity with a homosexual orientation.

'Natural law' does not mean 'occurs in nature'. Natural law has to do with the nature of a thing, and what it was created for, what its purpose is. The primary purpose of sexual intercourse is reproduction. Any sexual activity that goes against that purpose, or where that purpose is impossible, is therefore unnatural, since the nature of sex is to create children.

Any sort of imperfections in man are the result of original sin. God does not create our bodies; those are formed through natural processes - ones that He established, but not ones that require Him to miraculously intervene in. Those processes were harmed by original sin, and the result is all the various birth defects that occur. If homosexuals are 'born that way' due to brain structure influenced by hormones in the womb, that's a defect, not God creating someone that way. He creates our souls, not our bodies.
(10-09-2018, 01:29 PM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]If homosexuals are 'born that way' due to brain structure influenced by hormones in the womb, that's a defect...

And precisely like any defect not something in which to wallow, but something to overcome by effort.
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