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In responding to Austenbosten in his sad departure thread, I just said I thought he made points worth exploring on the main forum.

It's easiest if I just paste in what he and I said. But I will add some emphasis ... 


(01-19-2019, 09:11 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Although you make numerous points, I am deeply struck by your points about the current pontificate as well as the Trump era. I may just post these at the main forum. I think them worth discussing - how much has this pontificate and the Trump era affected FE and Traditionalism in general?


(01-16-2019, 07:45 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ] 
However, this forum seems to have declined dramatically following the pontificate of our current dread Pope.  With it, I have seen many members either leave, or be banned...fewer join and participate.  
. . .

 I feel that the topics now in the reign of Francis and Trump has seen people become more passionate about their own little pet projects, be it a stance on a cultural or political issue, or some conspiracy . . .

I think Pope Francis has done his bit to hurt FE, as well as the Church overall, by simply keeping people confused and disinterested. People are not flocking to Tradition, they are fleeing Francis and the NO, which is not the same. I think the rise of Trump has also done some damage to this site, as I think politics has again become a substitute for promoting Traditional Catholicism.


As I say - worth discussing. What are your thoughts?
                                                Francis and Trump are both subjects that would be pretty hard to avoid. And as for what are labeled as conspiracy theories, I know plenty of people in Traditional parishes (Latin and Eastern Rite) who believe them and plenty who do not.  Among my closest friends, there are people who would be offended by a few things I believe, just as I would be offended by some of there's. I've vocally supported President Trump about 80-90 pct of time, and in spite of being highly critical of his positions on Syria, Russia, and Iran, I've been accused by everyone from liberal Catholics to hardcore conservatives to out and out reds to even a couple Trad Catholics to being in the "Trump is never wrong" camp.

                                               As for this forum, I can't speak for every individual case, but a couple of recent bannings looked very justifiable. And I believe that is alot less likely to drive people away than say becoming like CAF where Traditional Catholics are regularly insulted by the ever increasing liberal majority.
(This is a soup of interconnected thoughts I have that I haven't properly formulated yet.)

The laity aren't going to save the Church.

FE is great, particularly the actual website. Genuinely Catholic online resources are really great for fast-track, big-picture catechesis. However, the advancements made in the dissemination of laymen's opinions couldn't be less relevant to the inevitable restoration. The laity do not run the Church. We are sheep. Enlightment ideology have made sheeple a pejorative, but the very God we all profess to believe in knows we are sheep. He made us this way and preached with this understanding. His priests are our shephards. With that in mind, in an era where we have a Pope who actively undermines the Faith and her institutions obviously we are going to see less interest in the authentic Catholic Faith.

Just look at Right To Life, the ONE genuinely big-tent grassroots movement Christians of all stripes share in common. We can't even stop the genocide of our countries' children and we think it's up to us to save the One True God's world-wide Church!? No.

I also think social media (forums like this being included however these don't abuse tech-induced hits of dopamine the way modern social media does) is a net negative for society. That doesn't mean I think it shouldn't exist, but I think a responsible family will make sure their children don't touch the stuff. These platforms are mostly a waste of time. I am NOT saying it's a sin to be on here. Or that people cannot be evangelized and saved through such platforms. But I am saying the ordinary uses of social media are related to vain glory and/or sloth. The more wholesome uses of social media are the extraordinary situations.

Let's be honest, if we all took away half the time we spent on here and dedicated that time to prayer or spiritual reading, we'd all be in better relationship with God than we are today.

If lay Catholics want to save the Church, we should be focused on growing in holiness and helping our families to do the same. Having an intellectually stimulating conversation on FE isn't a substitute for living the Faith.
Quote:how much has this pontificate and the Trump era affected FE and Traditionalism in general?


There's a lot more negativity over the state of the Church on the part of us traddies, for sure. Ten years ago things were looking better than now. I think it'll get much worse before things improve. Much worse. If you look at the approved prophecies, it's no joke. But personally, what's going on in the big Church doesn't affect my little Catholic world one bit--yet. Ten years from now, maybe only five years from now unfortunately it probably will.

As from Trump, I think we're damned lucky he made it into office. 

If we're looking for another Louis IX and Pius X, well, that's a long ways off. We have a lot more to suffer first, I'm afraid.
(01-19-2019, 09:26 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]I think Pope Francis has done his bit to hurt FE, as well as the Church overall, by simply keeping people confused and disinterested. People are not flocking to Tradition, they are fleeing Francis and the NO, which is not the same.

Something I've noticed is people turning to, or at least expressing interest in, Catholicism because of Pope Francis' popularity.  On the one hand, getting people talking about the Church in a positive way is a good thing.  The flip side is they aren't learning the Faith; it's being reduced to a fad, I guess you could say.


(01-19-2019, 09:26 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]I think the rise of Trump has also done some damage to this site, as I think politics has again become a substitute for promoting Traditional Catholicism.

I'm not sure he's done damage to this site.  My concern with Trump is that his bull in a china shop approach will piss people, who will become even more hostile towards conservative and traditional Catholics and Christians, who will be/are blamed for putting him in office.  Not saying I disagree with his results, but I think his mannerisms will have consequences.
(01-19-2019, 12:01 PM)Some Guy Wrote: [ -> ]The laity aren't going to save the Church.
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I'm more than aware of who I'm disagreeing with and the sentence was singled out for a reason.

Allow me to double-down:
The laity will save the Church in as far as we flock to the orthodox clergy and raise saintly children who themselves become reforming sisters, brothers, priests, and bishops. The laity will save the Church in as far as we raise Catholic families and are a light to secular society and draw our peers into the Church. But to think the laymen will themselves will be the great reformers is little more than a dream of grandeur and ambition, imo. We the laity have been duped decade after decade after decade for centuries now by secular thought leaders. I'll throw in with a Marxist style awakening of the masses to save the Church as soon as I throw in with Darwin style understanding of our origins. Which is to say, I won't.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious or rude or anything. Just saying how I sees it and I think I might be in the minority on this viewpoint, but oh well.
According to their website, the local SSPX has added a Mass as well as Holy Hour.
.
I doubt Trump has had any affect on Catholicism or the traditional bent.
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Hopefully God will send us a faithful leader in the next Pope, but until them, we have to hold to the faith - out loud or hunkered down, it is up to us.
Very interesting responses.

Re:

(01-19-2019, 05:11 PM)Jeeter Wrote: [ -> ]Something I've noticed is people turning to, or at least expressing interest in, Catholicism because of Pope Francis' popularity.  On the one hand, getting people talking about the Church in a positive way is a good thing.  The flip side is they aren't learning the Faith; it's being reduced to a fad, I guess you could say.

Well, your second point is very true. I remain unsure about the first, but hope you're right. I see indications that Francis's outreach to the secular world makes him _less_ interesting than before - e.g. much smaller crowds at Vatican etc. Again, I really hope you're right though ...

Moving on, I wasn't meaning to provoke any assessment of Trump, but only how this new era affects FE.

Or should I say new eraS - plural. Because so much seems different since 2013 when Francis arrived and 2016 with Brexit, Trump, rise of Alt-Right etc.

I am interested in the effects of both these phenomena. But the Francis one is the more important. Because I wonder how many of us feel like you, Jaca?

(01-19-2019, 02:16 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: [ -> ]There's a lot more negativity over the state of the Church on the part of us traddies, for sure. Ten years ago things were looking better than now. I think it'll get much worse before things improve. Much worse. If you look at the approved prophecies, it's no joke. But personally, what's going on in the big Church doesn't affect my little Catholic world one bit--yet. Ten years from now, maybe only five years from now unfortunately it probably will.


Or how many of us are really feeling discouraged, even despairing?

I definitely feel like this sometimes. But I always bounce back. 

Knowing history helps - seeing how the Church rebounds again and again. 

Also daily Mass helps more than I can ever say.
I can only speak on my behalf.

In a certain regard if it were not for Francis and the madness in the west, I don't know if I would be where I am today, people tend to appreciate something all the more when it's threatened and when they could very well lose it.

As for politics... well I can't kick these faithless and corrupt traitors out of the Church, but I can vote and practice my faith to the best of my ability.

Back when I was in school (8 years ago), I would never have thought this madness of 'same sex marriage' would sweep across the west like it did, along with the madness of transgenderism etc (and with such little resistance, in fact betrayal from Priests who kept silent or betrayal from those like Francis and James Martin and others who openly supported it, like another heretic and faithless priest in Australia who said on national TV they would vote specifically for gay marriage and was not rebuked at all... absolutely disgraceful! a public betrayal demands a public rebuke!), the west has gone absolutely crazy with all this madness.

Thank God Trump & Pence won and I really hope they do a good job and the people rally behind them and start waking up and turning back to God. I am also greatly impressed with the progress Russia has made since the fall of the USSR, their Orthodoxy. I believe Russia has either converted as promised by Our Lady of Fatima or it's well on it's way so we should still pray for them.

God Bless You
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