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I asked a similar question about this before and got a rather convoluted answer. WARNING: THIS IS A QUESTION ABOUT SEX. I WILL TRY TO BE AS DISCREET AS POSSIBLE.

I've been told that the "one rule" for Catholic sex between married persons is that the man always has to ejaculate in the woman's vagina and nowhere else. This is because ejaculation anywhere else is a) a waste of the man's seed and a deliberate attempt to avoid pregnancy and b) not "natural sex" according to Natural Law.

My question is: what does the Church define as "natural sex" and how did it reach this definition? I understand that sodomy is evil because it is basically a mockery of the "normal" sexual act, so would oral sex be put in this same category for the same reason?

Furthermore, the priest I talked to said it is permissible for a man to orally stimulate his wife to climax but not the other way around. I get that a woman's climax is not directly related to her fertility so no "seed is wasted," but it's still not a "natural" act for a man to orally stimulate his wife, is it? I mean, if we're going to make that argument that Catholics can only have sex the way their organs were designed to be used, then a man shouldn't be able to orally stimulate his wife to climax, because that's not "natural."

Very confused.
(02-01-2019, 08:21 PM)SacraCor714 Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, the priest I talked to said it is permissible for a man to orally stimulate his wife to climax but not the other way around. I get that a woman's climax is not directly related to her fertility so no "seed is wasted," but it's still not a "natural" act for a man to orally stimulate his wife, is it? I mean, if we're going to make that argument that Catholics can only have sex the way their organs were designed to be used, then a man shouldn't be able to orally stimulate his wife to climax, because that's not "natural."

Very confused.

Most American men aren't able to have sex the way their organs were designed to be used, since they've been circumcised.  Not coincidentally, uncircumcised men don't need to stimulate their wives orally in order for them to climax the way circumcised men often do.  The change in pattern of thrusting due to the lack of sensation in circumcised men is not beneficial to female stimulation, and sometimes leaves the woman in pain.
Your over thinking this natural sex idea and being extremely to rigid.

The vast, vast majority of females can not orgasm by penetration alone. It’s just not the way God made women. The clitoris is the only organ on the body that’s only purpose is sexual pleasure. It has no other role. So a man or the women during the entire act and specifically during intercourse will need to stimulate the clitoris or the female will not orgasm. If your saying natural sex is only penis into vagina and nothing else then your unable to give a women an orgasm. People will claim that the penis cAn make contact with the clitoris during sex but it’s actually the pubic bone that is making contact. Which then goes against the entire natural sex idea since the women is being stimulated by a pubic bone which is not a penis. Not to mention as men get older and hormones decrease they usually need assistance by way of stimulate to become fully ready for the act.

The simplest answer is :

The women may use her own fingers to stimulate herself during actual penetration. She may also stimulate herself right after the man has finished ejaculation.

The man may use his fingers or mouth to stimulate his wife to orgasm during the actual act of intercourse or before or after or many times as long as it’s the same act and not hours before or after.

A wife may manually stimulate her husband to arousal so he can complete the act.

The consensus does not seem to be set on if a women can orally stimulate her husband before the act. St. Alphonse’s says no. Father Ripperger says no. A Pope said anything goes as long as it ends in the right place. Other theologians say it’s ok. So this is less of a straight forward answer than the women.

Technically, I think anal stimulation with the penis into the anus is allowable as long as no seed is spilled. MM would know for sure and I think he mentioned this in the past.

All this goes with the premise the intent of the man is to ejaculate into the vagina. Obviously accidents happen and no one is at fault for an accident.

One last thing I will mention for those die hard people who say only penis in vagina is allowable and nothing else. I honestly believe this mindset will lead to sin and massive marriage problems. Cause either the wife is sinning by not being unnative in marriage since she must shut down or else come to resent her husband for turning her on and then denying her the final satisfaction. Orgasm is not the man point of sex but find me an person who could be brought to near orgasm and then left hanging and not come to resent their spouse. Or the husband sins because he leads his wife into a near occasion of sin eveytime he has sex with her since he knows he will extremely arouse her and then leave her hanging possibly leading her to the sin of masturbation or impure thoughts.

Sex should be unnative and procreative. Unnative for both spouses.
(02-01-2019, 09:11 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-01-2019, 08:21 PM)SacraCor714 Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, the priest I talked to said it is permissible for a man to orally stimulate his wife to climax but not the other way around. I get that a woman's climax is not directly related to her fertility so no "seed is wasted," but it's still not a "natural" act for a man to orally stimulate his wife, is it? I mean, if we're going to make that argument that Catholics can only have sex the way their organs were designed to be used, then a man shouldn't be able to orally stimulate his wife to climax, because that's not "natural."

Very confused.

Most American men aren't able to have sex the way their organs were designed to be used, since they've been circumcised.  Not coincidentally, uncircumcised men don't need to stimulate their wives orally in order for them to climax the way circumcised men often do.  The change in pattern of thrusting due to the lack of sensation in circumcised men is not beneficial to female stimulation, and sometimes leaves the woman in pain.
Well considering that train of thought goes against actual scientific data, I would be leery to believe it.  Unless you can show the scientific data for this claim.
(02-02-2019, 12:02 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]Sex should be unnative and procreative.  Unnative for both spouses.

I believe you meant 'unitive' not 'foreign'. Smile
(02-02-2019, 12:04 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]Well considering that train of thought goes against actual scientific data, I would be leery to believe it.  Unless you can show the scientific data for this claim.

I'm not sure what you're referencing when you say it's contrary to scientific data.  If you mean the loss of sensation, I can show you scientific data showing the loss of sensation due to circumcision.  

An intact man doesn't need to pull as far out prior to each thrust in order to be stimulated.  Shorter thrusts means more direct contact of the pubis with the clitoris.
(02-02-2019, 09:18 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-02-2019, 12:04 AM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]Well considering that train of thought goes against actual scientific data, I would be leery to believe it.  Unless you can show the scientific data for this claim.

I'm not sure what you're referencing when you say it's contrary to scientific data.  If you mean the loss of sensation, I can show you scientific data showing the loss of sensation due to circumcision.  

An intact man doesn't need to pull as far out prior to each thrust in order to be stimulated.  Shorter thrusts means more direct contact of the pubis with the clitoris.

The notion that uncircumcised men can have just vaginal sex and make a women orgasm while a circumcised men can’t.  Soemthing around 70% of women can not orgasm by penetration alone.  No matter if circumcised or uncircumcised.  No scientific evidence to support this claim.
For me the conscience fills in the blanks .Hebrews 13:4 comes to mind . Oh how wonderful he gift of Grace is.
(02-02-2019, 11:16 PM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]The notion that uncircumcised men can have just vaginal sex and make a women orgasm while a circumcised men can’t.  Soemthing around 70% of women can not orgasm by penetration alone.  No matter if circumcised or uncircumcised.  No scientific evidence to support this claim.

Was the study conducted in the United States? Certainly, if circumcision is a source of the problem, and you conduct the study with men where a majority of them are circumcised, it's going to skew the results.

I'm sure some women will still have issues not related to circumcision, regardless, but I suspect if you do a parallel study where the majority of men are intact, you'll find less than you would if you're only looking at the United States.
(02-03-2019, 04:14 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-02-2019, 11:16 PM)havok579257 Wrote: [ -> ]The notion that uncircumcised men can have just vaginal sex and make a women orgasm while a circumcised men can’t.  Soemthing around 70% of women can not orgasm by penetration alone.  No matter if circumcised or uncircumcised.  No scientific evidence to support this claim.

Was the study conducted in the United States?  Certainly, if circumcision is a source of the problem, and you conduct the study with men where a majority of them are circumcised, it's going to skew the results.  

I'm sure some women will still have issues not related to circumcision, regardless, but I suspect if you do a parallel study where the majority of men are intact, you'll find less than you would if you're only looking at the United States.

So you make a claim, have no evidence to back it up but I am just supposed to take your word for it?  Please show me anything proof that uncircumcised men can make women orgasm without any stimulation.  If not, if there is no proof then we are just going off what you "feel" is right.

The issue has nothing to do with circumcision.  The issue is the clitoris is externally located while some of it is internally located.  The external part is analogous to the head of the penis.  It needs stimulation to cause orgasm in vast majority of women.  Its sole purpose(clitoris) is sexual pleasure.  Just having penis in vagina sex does not properly stimulate the clitoris externally.  Its a basic concept to grasp.  If its not stimulated over 70% of women can not orgasm, no matter what technique the man uses for thrusting since just thrusting doesnt hit the spot.
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