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The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.
(02-05-2019, 12:54 PM)Eric F Wrote: [ -> ]The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.

Let's see how the bishops respond.
(02-05-2019, 01:36 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-05-2019, 12:54 PM)Eric F Wrote: [ -> ]The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.

Let's see how the bishops respond.

Lemme guess: we'll hear the sound of crickets and katydids.
It's actually worse

Freedom is a right of every person: each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression and action. The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings. This divine wisdom is the source from which the right to freedom of belief and the freedom to be different derives. Therefore, the fact that people are forced to adhere to a certain religion or culture must be rejected, as too the imposition of a cultural way of life that others do not accept;”

The poor delusional folks at Catholic answers have found a way to justify this.
(02-05-2019, 12:54 PM)Eric F Wrote: [ -> ]The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.

Sounds like Buddhism collides with the liberal mantra of "anything goes."

(02-05-2019, 02:06 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote: [ -> ]It's actually worse

Freedom is a right of every person: each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression and action. The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings. This divine wisdom is the source from which the right to freedom of belief and the freedom to be different derives. Therefore, the fact that people are forced to adhere to a certain religion or culture must be rejected, as too the imposition of a cultural way of life that others do not accept;”

The poor delusional folks at Catholic answers have found a way to justify this.

I really don't miss that place.
Wonder what it would be like to have a team of CAF apologists follow me around and explain away everything I ever say or do wrong ?
Fr. Leonard Feeney was the one priest in the 1950s who clearly understood how unrelenting the Freemasons who had infiltrated the Church would be in promoting religious indifferentism via the interfaith and "ecumenical" movements. Fr. Feeney's proposed solution of putting a great emphasis on the infallibly defined dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus still seems like the most effect way to combat this wicked conspiracy.
He's clearly out of bounds here and people lap it up like it's gospel. I have to admit, though, that some of the excuses folks are making for him are quite creative.

There is no salvation outside the Church. How is that complicated? Those that are innocently ignorant are the only exceptions, and I'm thinking that a pretty rare one.

I'm trying here, but the Pope makes heretical statements time and again and most bishops are doing nothing about it. It's times like these that I wonder if the the Church led by the Vatican is still the one true Church. Sure, the Pope isn't speaking ex cathedra, but people listen and accept what he's saying. The culture of the Church has dramatically changed and is still changing. Just look at the Pew Research data and you'll see that most U.S. Catholics reject key Church teachings and policies. Not a small fraction, but most.
Vatican's New Document on "Human Fraternity" Co-signed by Imam Who Believes in Death For Christian Converts

I seriously doubt that Francis's lickspittles, toadies, and minions will mention this little detail about his new BFF!

From Mahound's Paradise

[Image: Francis%2Band%2BAl-Tayeb.jpg]
Francis and Al-Tayyeb.
The Vatican just issued a "Document" to mark the current "Apostolic Journey of His Holiness Pope Francis to the United Arab Emirates".

It's called "A Document on Human Fraternity for World Peace and Living Together" and it's jointly signed by "His Holiness Pope Francis" and "The Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, Ahmed Al-Tayyeb."

As the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Sheik Al-Tayyeb is arguably the world's pre-eminent Muslim scholar.

He also is clearly on record (see below) as endorsing the punishment of death for apostates from Islam.

Notably, the current Document includes these lines:

Quote:Freedom is a right of every person: each individual enjoys the freedom of belief, thought, expression and action. The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings. This divine wisdom is the source from which the right to freedom of belief and the freedom to be different derives. Therefore, the fact that people are forced to adhere to a certain religion or culture must be rejected, as too the imposition of a cultural way of life that others do not accept;

Has Al-Tayyeb changed his mind? Does he now not believe in death to apostates, though he publicly reaffirmed that at least as recently as three years ago?

Are flying pigs halal?

Mahound's Paradise wrote on this issue in 2016, during some of the Vatican's initial dalliances with the wily Al-Tayyeb. We reprint that postin full, here:

Top Muslim Ally of Pope Francis Reaffirms that Muslim Converts to Christianity Should be Killed

[Image: Cheek%2Bto%2BSheik.jpg]
Cheek to Sheik
Two months ago, Pope Francis welcomed Sheik Ahmed el-Tayeb, - the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, and the highest scholarly authority in Sunni Islam - to the Vatican.

And a week ago, the Pope sent a representative to Al-Azhar as a follow-up and to "relaunch dialogue."

The original meeting, which included discussions between larger delegations from Al-Azhar and the Vatican, was characterized as extremely friendly - a sort of "re-set" of Catholic-Muslim relations after the iciness allegedly set off by Pope Benedict's Regensburg remarks in 2006.

According to Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi, in their conversation 

Quote:they had focused mainly on the theme of the common commitment of the authorities and faithful of the great religions for peace in the world, the rejection of violence and terrorism, the situation of Christians in the context of the conflicts and the tensions in the Middle East and their protection.

The Pope gave Sheik el-Tayeb a number of gifts including a copy of Laudato si.

Then they spontaneously embraced.

Sheik el-Tayeb is often described as a "moderate." He looks rational and reasonable, without the crazy smile of the fanatic. He supported el-Sisi against the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and has made a number of public statements against violent extremism and in favor of human rights in general.

A few months before meeting the Pope he declared in front of the German Parliament that the Koran guaranteed religious freedom.

However, as the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies recently pointed out (as highlighted by Raymond Ibrahim in a recent essay), el-Tayeb has a history of saying one thing to Western audiences and another to Arabic or Muslim ones.

For example, during this past Ramadan, el-Tayeb reaffirmed on his television show that Islam mandates death for apostates:

Quote:Contemporary apostasy presents itself in the guise of crimes, assaults, and grand treason, so we deal with it now as a crime that must be opposed and punished…. Those learned in Islam [al-fuqaha] and the imams of the four schools of jurisprudence consider apostasy a crime and agree that the apostate must either renounce his apostasy or else be killed.

The plucky Institute made a public statement calling on him to renounce this position, also making the general observation that 

Quote:Al Azhar adopts two contradictory speeches: one is open and directed externally, while the other supports violent extremism, and is directed internally.

Interestingly, it appears that the statement was not released in English or referenced on the English version of the site.

What are we to make of this?

Is Pope Francis aware that his new Muslim friend appears to believe that apostates from Islam should be killed? How does this comport with the "protection" of Christians in the region? Or perhaps the Pope, in his rejection of "proselytism," does not believe that Christian converts are worthy of protection, or should not be placed in the category of "Christians." Maybe it's more of an ethnic category.

Also, converts do tend to be a bit conservative, after all.

Actually, I suspect the Pope has no idea what el-Tayeb really believes or more to the point, doesn't really care. But he does seem to care very much about publicizing how dialogue with his quasi-peer distinguishes him from his predecessor:

[Image: Pope%2BDialogue.png]
In fairness to el-Tayeb, as the highest Sunni Muslim scholarly authority in the world it would be difficult if not impossible for him to declare to a Muslim audience that apostates shouldn't be put to death, as this is clearly stated in the Koran, the Hadith and Islamic history and tradition. In that context, advocating the death penalty for apostates is not an unusual or extreme position at all. Indeed, polls show that most Muslims in Egypt support it. Though, again, there is a tradition of not, as it were, making a big deal of this to Western audiences.

It may even be that el-Tayeb himself doesn't himself particularly want to execute apostates.

The problem with Islam is not that all Muslims are evil. It's that all Muslims are to one degree or another beholden to an evil ideology. Many Muslims (including most women) are enslaved to it.

So, why don't they just leave?

See above.

Who speaks for them?

Not Pope Francis, obviously.
I am asking for information that I have never received and can't seem to find on my own.
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I am not arguing about the Church being the source of salvation.
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I am not arguing about people who have never heard of Christ being saved.
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I am not arguing about Islam.
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What about Protestants who belong to churches that teach that the Catholic Church is evil?  Where I live there are Protestants who teach that Catholics are cannibals, worship statues and that questioning their own church's teachings shows that you lack true faith in Jesus and you will then go to hell.  What about those people sitting in the pews?  They want to love Jesus, they want to live a good and holy life, they want to go to heaven, and they are taught that if they question their own church/family, they will go to hell.  Can they go to heaven?
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Yes, I know people like this.
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