FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Hymns in the Traditional Breviary?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Hello! So I, as a layperson, am picking up the traditional breviary. It will be nice to pray the liturgy of the Church in a way that corresponds to the form of the mass that I attend the most (the EF).

I am aware that, in person, one need only say the office in a "sectreto" tone, or loud enough that I can basically hear my own words. Which begs the question, must I then sing the hymn? And, if so, is there any sort of comprehensive resource with all the hymns of the traditional office available? I am thinking perhaps gregobase, but any sort of PDF would also be good.

Thanks!
There's no requirement to sing the hymn, though it's a good thing to do of course. The Antiphonale Romanum contains everything needed for singing the whole Office (apart from Matins) including the hymns. There are a couple of versions of it online in pdf form: I use this one (large download). If you haven't used one of these books before it can be a bit tricky to navigate it, but the Index Hymnorum beginning on page 236* (1512 of the pdf) will point you to the right page if you're looking for a specific hymn. For Matins you'll need a Nocturnale, which is harder to track down but has also been published online.

(e: Though to clarify, the hymn still needs to be said even if you don't sing it)
As a layman not bound in any way to recite the Breviary, you can use it devotionally however you want. In fact it is probably best that you not get too worked up about the legal requirements for a cleric to pray it and fulfill the obligations that have.

In fact reciting the Breviary privately is a concession to reduce the older obligation of singing the whole things in choir. It is exactly the same kind of reduction that was done with the Low Mass. The normal form of Mass is the Solemn Mass. So each priest could say Mass every day, a recited form with one server was introduced, where the priest and server split the parts that would be for others. A Sung Mass is an late comer to the show where there was desire to have the singing while only having one priest. In its present form only came about in the 19th century. Previously there were places where at a Low Mass certain things were Sung.

The same goes for the Breviary. Thus like a Low Mass, everything is recited including the hymns, but again, it is not a liturgical act when you pray it devotionally, so there are no rubrics for you. You can say it however you like. A cleric has rules that he must observe.
(02-23-2019, 10:20 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]As a layman not bound in any way to recite the Breviary, you can use it devotionally however you want. In fact it is probably best that you not get too worked up about the legal requirements for a cleric to pray it and fulfill the obligations that have.

In fact reciting the Breviary privately is a concession to reduce the older obligation of singing the whole things in choir. It is exactly the same kind of reduction that was done with the Low Mass. The normal form of Mass is the Solemn Mass. So each priest could say Mass every day, a recited form with one server was introduced, where the priest and server split the parts that would be for others. A Sung Mass is an late comer to the show where there was desire to have the singing while only having one priest. In its present form only came about in the 19th century. Previously there were places where at a Low Mass certain things were Sung.

The same goes for the Breviary. Thus like a Low Mass, everything is recited including the hymns, but again, it is not a liturgical act when you pray it devotionally, so there are no rubrics for you. You can say it however you like. A cleric has rules that he must observe.

I do think the argument could be made that the layperson following the rubrics also prays the prayer of the Church liturgically. This is at least the case with the modern LOTH, and it would seem to also make sense with the old office given that it is approved for the secular Church under Summorum Pontificum. This is why I am seeking to actually learn how to say and comprehend the Latin.

Either way, from what I am reading, the rubrics for private recitation are actually really laid back. Though I am still going to follow many of the rules concerning the signing of the cross, kneeling, bowing, etc., from what I am reading, they are not really required when praying the hours alone.
(02-23-2019, 10:06 PM)Telecreon Wrote: [ -> ]There's no requirement to sing the hymn, though it's a good thing to do of course. The Antiphonale Romanum contains everything needed for singing the whole Office (apart from Matins) including the hymns. There are a couple of versions of it online in pdf form: I use this one (large download). If you haven't used one of these books before it can be a bit tricky to navigate it, but the Index Hymnorum beginning on page 236* (1512 of the pdf) will point you to the right page if you're looking for a specific hymn. For Matins you'll need a Nocturnale, which is harder to track down but has also been published online.

(e: Though to clarify, the hymn still needs to be said even if you don't sing it)

Good to know! Often, I sing it to the tune of Jesu Dulcis. I really like this PDF!! I noticed this is a 1960 book, would there be any differences between the hymns found in here and the hymns found in the 1962 office?
(02-23-2019, 10:30 PM)jesusalright4me Wrote: [ -> ]I do think the argument could be made that the layperson following the rubrics also prays the prayer of the Church liturgically.

The liturgy, properly speaking, is the prayer of Christ, offered by a deputed and ordained minister of His Mystical Body, to God the Father. Thus the liturgy is the prayer of Christ offered in the name of the Church, but someone who has the power to act in the name of the Church. This is what distinguishes liturgical from non-liturgical prayer.

This has always historically been understood to be restricted to those ordained or consecrated for this prayer, namely, the clergy and solemnly-professed religious. Traditionally it was also understood that in public ceremonies only a deacon or priest had the delegation from the Church to lead liturgical actions, and thus make actions liturgical for others who participated. This is why the liturgy never allowed anyone ranked below a deacon to say "Dominus vobiscum" in the liturgy. Even a Subdeacon who is bound to the office and prays liturgically as a result, but cannot lead others in liturgical prayer must say "Domine exaudi orationem meam."

The laity who are not joining a deacon or priest in praying the office in common are not doing a liturgical action in any proper sense of the term. In a loose sense, perhaps, they are using the prayer of the Church, which is a liturgical text. Having no authority to pray it in the name of the Church, which is what makes it liturgical, and incapable of receiving that power because they are not clerics or professed religious, it is not liturgical in the proper sense.

That may seem unreasonable, but it is actually for the protection of the laity. To offer the liturgy also means that, acting in the name of the Church, there are obligations to follow the rules of the liturgy. To omit parts, change them, or bungle them up through negligence would be sinful, since the Church demands of her ministers a degree of perfection in the praying of this liturgy.

That it is not liturgical for the laity, however, does not reduce its goodness for their souls when they use it devotionally.
(02-24-2019, 12:40 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-23-2019, 10:30 PM)jesusalright4me Wrote: [ -> ]I do think the argument could be made that the layperson following the rubrics also prays the prayer of the Church liturgically.

The liturgy, properly speaking, is the prayer of Christ, offered by a deputed and ordained minister of His Mystical Body, to God the Father. Thus the liturgy is the prayer of Christ offered in the name of the Church, but someone who has the power to act in the name of the Church. This is what distinguishes liturgical from non-liturgical prayer.

This has always historically been understood to be restricted to those ordained or consecrated for this prayer, namely, the clergy and solemnly-professed religious. Traditionally it was also understood that in public ceremonies only a deacon or priest had the delegation from the Church to lead liturgical actions, and thus make actions liturgical for others who participated. This is why the liturgy never allowed anyone ranked below a deacon to say "Dominus vobiscum" in the liturgy. Even a Subdeacon who is bound to the office and prays liturgically as a result, but cannot lead others in liturgical prayer must say "Domine exaudi orationem meam."

The laity who are not joining a deacon or priest in praying the office in common are not doing a liturgical action in any proper sense of the term. In a loose sense, perhaps, they are using the prayer of the Church, which is a liturgical text. Having no authority to pray it in the name of the Church, which is what makes it liturgical, and incapable of receiving that power because they are not clerics or professed religious, it is not liturgical in the proper sense.

That may seem unreasonable, but it is actually for the protection of the laity. To offer the liturgy also means that, acting in the name of the Church, there are obligations to follow the rules of the liturgy. To omit parts, change them, or bungle them up through negligence would be sinful, since the Church demands of her ministers a degree of perfection in the praying of this liturgy.

That it is not liturgical for the laity, however, does not reduce its goodness for their souls when they use it devotionally.


Do cloistered nuns in a monastery pray the prayer of the Church when they recite the Office?
(02-24-2019, 02:14 AM)jesusalright4me Wrote: [ -> ]Do cloistered nuns in a monastery pray the prayer of the Church when they recite the Office?

Apply the above principles I enunciated and you would have answered your own question.

"[T]he liturgy is the prayer of Christ offered in the name of the Church, but someone who has the power to act in the name of the Church ... This has always historically been understood to be restricted to those ordained or consecrated for this prayer, namely, the clergy and solemnly-professed religious." (emphasis mine)

So, yes.

Clostered nuns (second-order religious) are bound in solemn vows to the recitation of the Breviary. By their religious consecration/vows they are given some of the privileges of clerics in a limited sphere. This is why an Abbess can receive a jurisdiction (a clerical power) over her nuns, but not over the faithful in general.

If such a one can receive a jurisdictional power to rule certain people be means of her religious and abatial consecration to act in the name of the Church in a limited sphere in executive governance, then certainly she (and her nuns with her) can receive that juridictional power to pray with said nuns in the name of the Church.

This probably does not apply to tertiaries, even those who are given the habit and live a common life because they cannot hold jurisdiction in any ordinary way and none are bound to the Breviary.