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Came across this interesting thread on Twitter, from @StefMNicholas. It was made, I believe, in response to a different thread in which non-virgins were referred to as "used goods" that no man would want to marry. What do y'all think? How can we find the balance I talk about in my response to her?


[Image: shameandnonvirgins.png]
I think the statement "Become a trad Catholic, you're forgiven, but people are gonna remind you of your diminished mate value" says a lot. I think this can be said for a lot of people with past sins, and not just for the unchaste. You can repent and be forgiven, but you can't completely erase the baggage you've accumulated.
Good values should always be instilled in culture/society to avoid such things and you should feel sorry for your sins otherwise something is wrong but....

We all sin so who are we to judge? If anything more love and compassion should be shown. After all god is love.

John 8:7 from Christ himself: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Without love what is there?

God Bless you all
" used goods " is nothing more than outdated slang that guys use towards women, if you really want to flip the script, see how women react to men who are in the dating world, and admit to be a virgin, just take the claim at face value of being true as to not muddle things.forget the probability of it and other factors of being attractive and etc. Society has taught that everyone male and female, should lose their virginity in their early teens to early twenties. If you don't something has to be wrong with you, but sleep with too many people and all of a sudden women are jezebelles and used goods, and men are who knows what, no good dogs I suppose.
But really, why would any woman want to be around people who roam in the world of others using such labels. Or perhaps it is a personal hang up and self labeling one is trying to get over.

To bad there is no reliable study out there on such things and how having healthy sexual relationships can better people versus a religious edict not limited to the Catholic Church , can cause more harm than good, versus letting people live their lives, make their own choices, and let God be the Judge Jury and Executioner.
But there ya go, that is the rub, at some point in history humanity figures thinks they can do a better job at being religious leaders and interpreters instead of teaching people how to honestly discern how God is directing them. Instead we get a church that is in such fear of its own faults that it created rules to shame others for their humanity and bring the layity into the problems they face themselves in turn shifting a problem onto others as to distract everyone from the problems they face.


( Catholic F Bomb, you don't agree with me so I will pray for you and God Bless )
(02-24-2019, 11:13 AM)jack89 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the statement  "Become a trad Catholic, you're forgiven, but people are gonna remind you of your diminished mate value" says a lot.  I think this can be said for a lot of people with past sins, and not just for the unchaste.  You can repent and be forgiven, but you can't completely erase the baggage you've accumulated.

The baggage from sin can not be erased from yourself or those affected but should not be even considered by anyone else.
I understand where this person is coming from. I see this a lot from people. Someone repents of their sinful ways and yet those things are still held against them. Mothers who have children out of wedlock are a perfect example. These women and men made mistakes, have repented and come back to Christ, yet these sins are still held against them by and here is the thing, by people who are not even directly connected to the situation. They judge from a far.

It makes it very hard for those who have made mistakes to join the trad community. They feel as though they are forever judged as inferior for past mistakes they made before they even joined the community. It becomes really hard to join a community when the past is always held against you and your looked down upon.
(02-24-2019, 12:01 PM)Nacho Wrote: [ -> ]To bad there is no reliable study out there on such things and how having healthy sexual relationships can better people versus a religious edict not limited to the Catholic Church , can cause more harm than good, versus letting people live their lives, make their own choices, and let God be the Judge Jury and Executioner.
But there ya go, that is the rub, at some point in history humanity figures thinks they can do a better job at being religious leaders and interpreters instead of teaching people how to honestly discern how God is directing them. Instead we get a church that is in such fear of its own faults that it created rules to shame others for their humanity and bring the layity into the problems they face themselves in turn shifting a problem onto others as to distract everyone from the problems they face.


( Catholic F Bomb, you don't agree with me so I will pray for you and God Bless )

See: 
You need to think a lot more deeply about all sorts of thing.
First, who ever claimed that non-virgins are "less valuable"?

Methinks that someone like a St Mary Magdalene or St Margaret of Cortona sort of suggests that the Church extols as great saints those who have had a sordid past and repented.

I don't think I've ever read or heard someone say that a Catholic should or do think those who have a sordid past are "less valuable" or should be treated as such. Stefanie's rant sounds like sour grapes and self-pity, or more like she was just offended by a person who wasn't interested in a relationship with someone who had other sexual partners in the past.

If men (or women) do not want to marry (and thus date) a partner that has had other sexual partners, that's their own choice. There are plenty of good reasons why someone might want to avoid such a relationship given the baggage it brings, medically, physically, and emotionally.

Sin leaves wounds. We can't expect that after some sins, we just pick up and move on as if nothing happened. God is merciful and forgives the eternal punishment of Hell, and He provides grace to help us deal and minimize the effect with the wounds we've created, but the temporal effects of sin do not go away, and that's a good thing. That helps us to be sorry, remain sorry, and practice virtue against those wounds and thus merit.

If some guy involved in some gang got all tatted up, face and all, but then later repented, moved away and became a penitent and devout traditional Catholic, good on him. He doesn't get to complain that traddies that women don't want to marry or date him, since he's repented and sorry for his past. People need to treat him like a human being, and show love, but there's nothing wrong with a woman saying, I don't really want to spend the rest of my life with a man who has that kind of past and looks like that. That's not bigoted, nor in any way a lack of charity. He has to deal with not only the sins of his past as regards God, but the other temporal effects that affect him and others.

The same applies to a man who finds out the woman he's interested in (or vice versa) has a sexual past and he isn't interested in taking on that baggage. No lack of charity there. Same principles.
(02-24-2019, 02:49 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: [ -> ]First, who ever claimed that non-virgins are "less valuable"?

Methinks that someone like a St Mary Magdalene or St Margaret of Cortona sort of suggests that the Church extols as great saints those who have had a sordid past and repented.

I don't think I've ever read or heard someone say that a Catholic should or do think those who have a sordid past are "less valuable" or should be treated as such. Stefanie's rant sounds like sour grapes and self-pity, or more like she was just offended by a person who wasn't interested in a relationship with someone who had other sexual partners in the past.

There's a backlash going on with regard to the sexual revolution and promiscuity (at least on the part of women), even in the secular world, and thank God for that. But apparently, even in the Catholic world, there's a lack of charity on the part of some in how they go about talking about it. I've seen it a lot in secular circles, and with regard to Catholic ones, well, Steve Skojec of One Peter Five tweeted, "I've seen it enough that it makes me uneasy. I suspect it's a significant chunk of the 25 and under crowd these days."

And Stefanie Nichols replied to my tweet: "Talking about it frankly without tweeting repentant, chaste Catholic women laughing at how they’ll never get their virginity back would be a start." -- and that penitent wasn't herself, but another.

Seems we have to find some nuance and to be more clear about guilt vs. shame, the power of grace, etc. 

Another issue that's related: what to do with the pregnant, unwed teenager? Some would shame her to the point of emotionally driving her to an abortion clinic -- but how do we deal with such things like unwed pregnancies without encouraging them? If there are no consequences, there's nothing temporal to deter them, but if there are inordinate consequences, women and babies can (unjustly, IMO) suffer a lifetime (or babies might not get born at all).
 
Quote:If men (or women) do not want to marry (and thus date) a partner that has had other sexual partners, that's their own choice. There are plenty of good reasons why someone might want to avoid such a relationship given the baggage it brings, medically, physically, and emotionally.

Sin leaves wounds. We can't expect that after some sins, we just pick up and move on as if nothing happened. God is merciful and forgives the eternal punishment of Hell, and He provides grace to help us deal and minimize the effect with the wounds we've created, but the temporal effects of sin do not go away, and that's a good thing. That helps us to be sorry, remain sorry, and practice virtue against those wounds and thus merit.

If some guy involved in some gang got all tatted up, face and all, but then later repented, moved away and became a penitent and devout traditional Catholic, good on him. He doesn't get to complain that traddies that women don't want to marry or date him, since he's repented and sorry for his past. People need to treat him like a human being, and show love, but there's nothing wrong with a woman saying, I don't really want to spend the rest of my life with a man who has that kind of past and looks like that. That's not bigoted, nor in any way a lack of charity. He has to deal with not only the sins of his past as regards God, but the other temporal effects that affect him and others.

The same applies to a man who finds out the woman he's interested in (or vice versa) has a sexual past and he isn't interested in taking on that baggage. No lack of charity there. Same principles.
 
I totally agree with all that. The problem seems to be in how many people are discouraging "women with pasts" from the path of holiness by telling them they're "used goods," without hope of every marrying, unworthy of "polite society," etc. We need to determine some sort of "golden mean" or the right "tone" to take. It's apparently a large enough problem that there are now a few long threads about it on Twitter.
(02-24-2019, 03:42 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: [ -> ]I totally agree with all that. The problem seems to be in how many people are discouraging "women with pasts" from the path of holiness by telling them they're "used goods," without hope of every marrying, unworthy of "polite society," etc. We need to determine some sort of "golden mean" or the right "tone" to take. It's apparently a large enough problem that there are now a few long threads about it on Twitter.

I think what is missing when these subjects are brought up is compassion. Anybody can "just tell you how it is" but if something is discussed with love and actually caring about the other parties feelings I believe this could go a long way. This goes for not using phrases like "Used Goods" when referring to someone who was unchaste previously.

We are after all one body sins and all.

Edit: I would like to add that people should not strike up these conversations with people or towards groups of people just to shame them and if that is what is going on it should stop as it's an abomination.

God Bless
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