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(09-11-2019, 08:37 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: [ -> ]If you have a personal relationship  with Our Lord, why attend mass?

Because He is really present, body, blood soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist, which can only be found at Mass, take away Christ in the Holy Eucharist and there isn't any need to attend Mass IMO, we can watch homilies on youtube and pray in the comfort of our homes.

God Bless
(09-11-2019, 09:26 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-11-2019, 08:37 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: [ -> ]If you have a personal relationship  with Our Lord, why attend mass?

Because He is really present, body, blood soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist, which can only be found at Mass, take away Christ in the Holy Eucharist and there isn't any need to attend Mass IMO, we can watch homilies on youtube and pray in the comfort of our homes.

God Bless

Yes! I agree since the Eucharist is the most important part of the Mass and it was very eloquent and you didn't reduce/degrade it by referring to a mere relationship because it was utterly unnecessary.
Sorry, I thought the question was "why do protestants call it a personal relationship etc."

ETA-
Stephanus ignotum wrote: "When it comes to speaking about 'Jesus as Our personal Lord and Saviour', why is the word 'personal' remotely necessary in that sentence?"



To protestant ears a personal 
relationship would un-necessitate 
attendance of catholic mass?

Fairly simple answer
(09-11-2019, 10:09 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry, I thought the question was "why do protestants call it a personal relationship etc."

ETA-
Stephanus ignotum wrote: "When it comes to speaking about 'Jesus as Our personal Lord and Saviour', why is the word 'personal' remotely necessary in that sentence?"



To protestant ears a personal 
relationship would un-necessitate 
attendance of catholic mass?

Fairly simple answer

Non-Catholics should embrace the Faith, yet on its terms and not on their own.

It's tragically ironic that in embracing the concept of a 'personal relationship', they are more likely to be further from God, than closer to Him.
(09-11-2019, 09:25 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: [ -> ]Plus, is it any wonder that when seen as a 'relationship', people then treat churches as no better than somewhere they're hanging out in?

And these days, when you fall out of love in a relationship, just move on to the next. Whether that's spouses or churches.
Back to the question - what do they experience? That can vary a ton. If it's a Charismatic church it could be all kind of phenomenon. If it's a liberal church it could be all kinds of "you are OK just how you are, God loves you and made you like this, don't change".

So they could experience comfort of some sort.

If it's a good conservative protestant church like I attended, I heard the Gospel for the first time really. That's a powerful thing. That God loves you, even though you are the sinner you know you are, but there is still hope. And hope is powerful.

I spent years in Catholicism without really hearing the Gospel. In all honesty, the way the Catholic Church does it's Scripture readings is pretty bad. They are often so short, and have chunks cut out of them, that they are hard to follow or make heads or tails of if you are not already familiar with them. When you combine that with really poor preaching, people come away from Mass and just feel disconnected.

So what protestants are often experiencing is that they understand and learn something, where for years at Mass they neither understood or learned much. Then they feel this experience. It's really understandable.
(09-12-2019, 07:01 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: [ -> ]Back to the question - what do they experience?  That can vary a ton.  If it's a Charismatic church it could be all kind of phenomenon.  If it's a liberal church it could be all kinds of "you are OK just how you are, God loves you and made you like this, don't change".

So they could experience comfort of some sort.

If it's a good conservative protestant church like I attended, I heard the Gospel for the first time really.  That's a powerful thing.  That God loves you, even though you are the sinner you know you are, but there is still hope.  And hope is powerful.

I spent years in Catholicism without really hearing the Gospel.  In all honesty, the way the Catholic Church does it's Scripture readings is pretty bad.  They are often so short, and have chunks cut out of them, that they are hard to follow or make heads or tails of if you are not already familiar with them.  When you combine that with really poor preaching, people come away from Mass and just feel disconnected.  

So what protestants are often experiencing is that they understand and learn something, where for years at Mass they neither understood or learned much.  Then they feel this experience.  It's really understandable.

Despite wanting to not be unfair, you using the word 'experience' (or a variation of it) and more than once, is perhaps revealing as to the greater predilection among Protestants for emotionalism (despite some of their positive 'experiences'), with that ultimately being unstable and having pervaded the Catholic Church.

The result being that for many decades now, the Church has suffered from the problems you describe and that it didn't suffer from before Vatican II/its immediate aftermath (or anywhere near as much as now anyway), so given that and your embrace of the fullness of the True Faith, it is understandable, but wrong.
So I was raised nominally Catholic, in a Christmas-and-Easter-only type of family. I was baptized and confirmed. I rejected the faith at a young age. I had a "born-again" type of experience when I was 19. I got involved in Protestant circles for years. Eventually, through study and prayer, I came home. I discovered the true Catholic faith in its entirety, made a general confession, received our Lord, and from there discovered tradition. So i'm very familiar with this phenomenon and have experienced it myself. These are my thoughts.

I believe some protestants do genuinely have a bonafide encounter with God. My "born-again" experience involved getting into a serious accident, calling on Christ to help me, and following that being overwhelmed with conviction of sin and a general sense that I was on the road to Hell. As best I knew how at that time, I cried out to God for mercy and surrendered my life to him. Prior to all of this I had been witnessed to, but only by protestants. Not one Catholic ever shared Christ with me. Not one. The protestants did, and with zeal. Despite the egregious flaws in their theology, they planted a seed in me that came to fruition later.

I firmly believe that God really did do something that day when I cried out to him for mercy. My whole mind shifted. I went from being an atheist and a degenerate kid, to falling in love with Christ. I didn't know the truth faith, I was ignorant, I catechized myself with fundamentalist protestantism. But something genuinely happened to me, I firmly believe that.

Some things about protestantism never sat well with me. I tried really hard to believe in "once saved always saved" and reformed theology but it never sat right with me. Its like that still small voice of the Holy Spirit was convicting me of the need of holiness of life and perseverance, you know, basic elements of the Catholic faith. It took a few years but God led me more and more to study theology, Church history, morals and everything I could about my faith and eventually I came to realize that the Catholic Church was in fact the true Church. And I came home.

So to conclude I believe many protestants do have a genuine encounter with God, and these are led, eventually, if they assent to the grace of God, to discover the traditional Catholic faith and come into or return to the Church. Many of course resist this grace and cling stubbornly to their heresies because these heresies provide a sort of security and comfort in one's sin. But a protestant who's been touched by the grace of God, and genuinely loves Christ as far as he understands him, will I believe be led to the truth, as I was.

Sometimes the whole "born-again" experience is a real act of God's grace, which leads to the fullness of faith and union in the one true Church of Christ.
(09-12-2019, 04:37 PM)1Faith Wrote: [ -> ]So I was raised nominally Catholic, in a Christmas-and-Easter-only type of family. I was baptized and confirmed. I rejected the faith at a young age. I had a "born-again" type of experience when I was 19. I got involved in Protestant circles for years. Eventually, through study and prayer, I came home. I discovered the true Catholic faith in its entirety, made a general confession, received our Lord, and from there discovered tradition. So i'm very familiar with this phenomenon and have experienced it myself. These are my thoughts.

I believe some protestants do genuinely have a bonafide encounter with God. My "born-again" experience involved getting into a serious accident, calling on Christ to help me, and following that being overwhelmed with conviction of sin and a general sense that I was on the road to Hell. As best I knew how at that time, I cried out to God for mercy and surrendered my life to him. Prior to all of this I had been witnessed to, but only by protestants. Not one Catholic ever shared Christ with me. Not one. The protestants did, and with zeal. Despite the egregious flaws in their theology, they planted a seed in me that came to fruition later.

I firmly believe that God really did do something that day when I cried out to him for mercy. My whole mind shifted. I went from being an atheist and a degenerate kid, to falling in love with Christ. I didn't know the truth faith, I was ignorant, I catechized myself with fundamentalist protestantism. But something genuinely happened to me, I firmly believe that.

Some things about protestantism never sat well with me. I tried really hard to believe in "once saved always saved" and reformed theology but it never sat right with me. Its like that still small voice of the Holy Spirit was convicting me of the need of holiness of life and perseverance, you know, basic elements of the Catholic faith. It took a few years but God led me more and more to study theology, Church history, morals and everything I could about my faith and eventually I came to realize that the Catholic Church was in fact the true Church. And I came home.

So to conclude I believe many protestants do have a genuine encounter with God, and these are led, eventually, if they assent to the grace of God, to discover the traditional Catholic faith and come into or return to the Church. Many of course resist this grace and cling stubbornly to their heresies because these heresies provide a sort of security and comfort in one's sin. But a protestant who's been touched by the grace of God, and genuinely loves Christ as far as he understands him, will I believe be led to the truth, as I was.

Sometimes the whole "born-again" experience is a real act of God's grace, which leads to the fullness of faith and union in the one true Church of Christ.

While I'm not meaning (in any way, shape or form) to sanction Protestantism, you've spoken well for the most part and your sincerity totally comes across and you've given me even more pause for thought.

After all, while I shouldn't be speculating as to the Will of God, I will say that maybe God was trying to reach you and to bring you back to the Faith via this indirect route, since possibly it was less likely to be direct, on account of your earlier lapse from the Faith.

Like you, I am a cradle Catholic that hasn't always lived up to that (to put it politely) and is serious about living up to my full potential - which humanity in general and each person in particular can only achieve through Catholicism. Besides, though an implacable opponent of Protestantism, I try not to let that (or anything) interfere with my objectivity in this or anything.

All of that said, I can't and won't accept that the description of 'born-again' or having a 'personal relationship' are acts of God's Grace or are right in themselves at all.
(08-14-2019, 12:43 PM)boredoftheworld Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-14-2019, 11:22 AM)FultonFan Wrote: [ -> ]I assume everyone’s familiar with “accepting Christ as your personal Saviour” as described by many Protestants. Many of these people seem to be doing what’s right according to a dulled conscience.

So what are they experiencing when they go to Christ in prayer? Are they receiving graces to lead them to full Communion with the Church? Is it something else they’re experiencing?

Having observed evangelical Christians for my entire life either as one or running from them I can say with zero hesitation that the answer to your question is: nothing. They're making it up, usually unconsciously (which is different than subconsciously apparently) or with full awareness. The whole "Personal Lord and Savior" business is a bonkers strawman attack on Catholicism. I think the whole concept arose from theological confusion at the beginning of the 20th century when Christians contrasted their understanding of God as being a Person with the "uncaused cause" of the spiritualists and various weirdos in the UK. Americans, as is typical, took the idea and ran with it while not having even the first clue what they were talking about and decided the whole argument was this personal relationship thing.

That gave rise to the whole "Me and Jesus" insanity which is an extension of American rugged individualism. I suppose it's what happens when political philosophy informs theology rather than the other way round.

As someone who started out in a Baptist church about 20 years ago right about the time I was becoming a man, I can say that I agree with you.  I didn't feel anything, I didn't believe that just by praying that God would forgive me he actually would.  And then it really bugged me, what if I made more mistakes, do I just get to accept Jesus as my savior again and everything is forgiven again?  It's totally inconsistent with itself, doesn't have any objective signs and makes no sense to me.  I guess some people really get some good "feelz" from it.
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