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Full Version: Hypothetically, would ordination of women mean the gates of hell had prevailed?
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From a theological perspective I mean, not necessarily from an "I've had enough!" perspective. I guess the thought I had about this was that in the case of women priests, you would no longer have any certainty that a mass was valid or that transubstantiation was taking place. Once a female bishop exists to confer apostolic succession the game is up, because you could not reasonably guarantee that a male priest was actually ordained or if a female imposter just put her hands on him. 

I don't think it will happen, by the way. It hasn't so far, and all the leftist popes like JPII and Francis seem opposed to it. But deaconnesses would be a bridge too far for me regardless, at which point I'd throw in the towel. But I hope in my heart it doesn't come to that, and I feel like it won't.
I want to be very clear here so the topic doesn't immediately go off the rails. What I mean is that by having a female bishop the visible church would no longer be able to guarantee that any sacraments are actually taking place. 

This is similar to the arguments that I don't necessarily agree with that go: modern bishops are modernist heretics, therefore they are no longer Catholics, therefore the priests they ordain are not valid.

This case is different though because this is not about knowing what is in some bishops heart but an objective marker, sex, that proves irrefutably that apostolic succession is not valid or at least guaranteed.
(10-13-2019, 06:12 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]I guess the thought I had about this was that in the case of women priests, you would no longer have any certainty that a mass was valid or that transubstantiation was taking place. Once a female bishop exists to confer apostolic succession the game is up, because you could not reasonably guarantee that a male priest was actually ordained or if a female imposter just put her hands on him. 

I don't think it will happen, by the way. It hasn't so far, and all the leftist popes like JPII and Francis seem opposed to it. But deaconnesses would be a bridge too far for me regardless, at which point I'd throw in the towel. But I hope in my heart it doesn't come to that, and I feel like it won't.

I completely agree, when it comes to deaconesses, at that point it's basically female priestesses and paganism IMO, but you could still have a valid Eucharist therefore I would go to as great a lengths as possible or necessary to avoid such apostates and still receive Our Lord.

I too hope it doesn't come to that, but my hope is fading, at the end of Mass tonight Father mentioned a talk that was going to be given from a female theologian about greater role for women in the Church and the 2020 Plenary Council in Australia is marred with so much heresy and heretics, they only listen to one voice and it's not ours, just a cover to pretend like it's what the people want when it's actually what they want, which is a nonsense anyway because they should be asking what Christ wants and following the scriptures and tradition which isn't a democracy.

I go back and forth between 'Jesus, I Trust in You' and the disciples in Mark 4:37-40

Things appear to be getting worse and worse, there are things that give me hope though, and signs of hope, I don't know how this will all play out, but there is nowhere else I can go and I've read in private revelation that the Church will be restored in all her Glory, and this I believe can only happen once she lies in ruin, that's the only way the wolves voluntarily abandon ship, so things are going to get pretty bad, just hang in there. Pray, hope and love.

When all appears lost that is when it will be won.

God Bless You
(10-13-2019, 07:29 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: [ -> ]I completely agree, when it comes to deaconesses, at that point it's basically female priestesses and paganism IMO, but you could still have a valid Eucharist therefore I would go to as great a lengths as possible or necessary to avoid such apostates and still receive Our Lord.

I too hope it doesn't come to that, but my hope is fading, at the end of Mass tonight Father mentioned a talk that was going to be given from a female theologian about greater role for women in the Church and the 2020 Plenary Council in Australia is marred with so much heresy and heretics, they only listen to one voice and it's not ours, just a cover to pretend like it's what the people want when it's actually what they want, which is a nonsense anyway because they should be asking what Christ wants and following the scriptures and tradition. It isn't a democracy.

I go back and forth between 'Jesus, I Trust in You' and the disciples in Mark 4:37-40

Things appear to be getting worse and worse, there are things that give me hope though, and signs of hope, I don't know how this will all play out, but there is nowhere else I can go and I've read in private revelation that the Church will be restored in all her Glory, and this I believe can only happen once she lies in ruin, that's the only way the wolves voluntarily abandon ship, so things are going to get pretty bad, just hang in there. Pray, hope and love.

When all appears lost that is when it will be won.

God Bless You

If the Church did go down this road and hit a line in the sand, it wouldn't really be the end of the world.  It would just mean that you and I had discerned what the true Church was incorrectly.  It would be a very big deal, but you would still have plenty of time left in your life to discern the correct path.
(10-13-2019, 07:42 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]If the Church did go down this road and hit a line in the sand, it wouldn't really be the end of the world.  It would just mean that you and I had discerned what the true Church was incorrectly.  It would be a very big deal, but you would still have plenty of time left in your life to discern the correct path.

I disagree, it's the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or bust. Who else has succession from the keys given to St Peter? Sr Lucia said the final battle will be over marriage and the family, nevertheless, Our Lady has already crushed it's head.

God Bless You
(10-13-2019, 07:52 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree, it's the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or bust. Who else has succession from the keys given to St Peter? Sr Lucia said the final battle will be over marriage and the family, nevertheless, Our Lady has already crushed it's head.

God Bless You

I don't disagree with you.  I wouldn't post here otherwise.  Nevertheless, I'm not above an exploration of worst case scenarios and their implications for the sake of my sanity.
While I mostly just ignore the problems of the modernists these days, this is an interesting hypothetical situation.  I would say this: the Church has definitively taught that Holy Orders are reserved to men and that she has no authority to confer them on women.  The matter of the Sacrament of Holy Orders must be a male Christian.  Therefore, if a pope were to ever attempt to allow Holy Orders to be conferred on women, he would be committing undeniable public heresy and would, as far as I know, immediately fall from the papal office.  I would think the scenario would play out like this: Pope Liberal I would announce that women can now be admitted to the priesthood.  The remaining faithful prelates will denounce the act and warn that it is heresy.  Pope Liberal I goes ahead and allows the first ordinations.  The remaining faithful prelates declare the papacy to be vacant and elect a new pope.  Pretty general outline but that's pretty much how I think it would go down.  The faithful would then have to choose to follow the new pope and true Catholicism or go along with the former pope and his supporters in the former hierarchy into schism.  Not a pretty scenario, but that is what I think would happen if a pope were to attempt the ordination of women.
(10-13-2019, 08:19 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-13-2019, 07:52 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree, it's the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or bust. Who else has succession from the keys given to St Peter? Sr Lucia said the final battle will be over marriage and the family, nevertheless, Our Lady has already crushed it's head.

God Bless You

I don't disagree with you.  I wouldn't post here otherwise.  Nevertheless, I'm not above an exploration of worst case scenarios and their implications for the sake of my sanity.

Unfortunately, over the last 50 years, but much more so during the last six years, many of us have made it a habit of expecting the worst.  To the current pontificate's notorious credit, there is no shortage of coming up with these scenarios.

To me, yes, the gates of hell will have prevailed by conferring Holy Orders to women, either in the diaconate or priesthood.  A woman in vestments on the altar, assisting the priest, reading the Gospel, and giving a homily would be a sign of capitulation to the secular notion of equality. 

I don't think Francis wants female deacons, but he'll be pressured to do so. I pray he resists.  The "bishops" around him see a female diaconate as some kind of consolation prize to women and a tangible step to priesthood which is still very far off.  A female diaconate is just a huge virtue-signal to showcase these bishops' desire to make the Church progressive, a true Church that "listens."  The most evil aspect of this would be their claim that the change came from the Holy Spirit, the constantly hijacked person of the Holy Trinity who they always supposedly claim speaks in opposition to the Father and Son. 

I would not attend a Mass with a female deacon.  The strategy would be to further effeminize the Church and turn even more men off to the priesthood, resulting in the manufactured need for female priests.  Obviously this strategy has been in play for many years now.  But one need only look at a parish which allows altar girls and EMHCs to see how many boys and men participate in these areas.  Men desire brotherhood, they are attracted to battle and spiritual warfare; a young boy has no desire to volunteer in a capacity he sees overrun by girls. 

The two "gates of hell" scenarios most likely to persist over the next few years will be female deacons and the blessing of same-sex "unions."  One can make the case that we're already there with the death penalty change.

We need to continue to pray for Pope Francis.  He has excommunicated someone before for continuing to advocate women priests.
I know it's provocative but I don't think many Catholics could EVER suggest ANY scenario for leaving the RCC. Let's be honest, if changing the liturgy throughout the entirety of the 20th century and witnessing Popes kissing korans and attempting to usher in a new globalist religion (Assisi, Amazon Synod etc.) hasn't gotten people to walk away than nothing will, to say nothing of backsliding on usury.(Michael Hoffmans excellent book Occult Renaissance Church of Rome clearly shows this last part.) 

You watch, even if the Pope decides to ordain women there will always be some jesuitical hair splitting answer to justify it or to pretend that it's not what it looks like so that people will protect their psyche from further damage.  Hate to be that harsh but that's how I see it. This has been the name of the game for centuries, whether it was with usury,  the liturgy or whatever.  Same old, same old.  

The RCC already got millions to sign on to the Novus Ordo through obedience alone.  Women priests are not a stretch, and 99% of Catholics will eventually come to accept it and the Pope knows it. The future of Rome looks to me like the Anglican Communion with a handful of neutral ghetto groups treated as pariahs by the mainstream while the rest go along to get along.  Isn't this already the case in the trad world? 

On sad note,  these are real people the RC hierarchy are playing with, and matters of religion are taken very seriously by many (myself included). It is usually the most devout that are scandalized the most by this stuff(and rightly they should be). People's mental health is at stake here.  If I remember correctly after Vatican II a lot of the super devout actually went crazy or lost faith in God altogether.  This is no laughing matter.
(10-13-2019, 09:23 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]You watch, even if the Pope decides to ordain women there will always be some jesuitical hair splitting answer to justify it or to pretend that it's not what it looks like so that people will protect their psyche from further damage.  Hate to be that harsh but that's how I see it. This has been the name of the game for centuries, whether it was with usury,  the liturgy or whatever.  Same old, same old. 

Yeah, this exact same sort of thing played out with the death penalty change.

I have no doubt that if women's "ordination" did start happening, people would wave away JPII's infallible statements on the topic as "just being meant for that period in history," along with any and all other evidence against it. Basically retconning infallible statements as much as needed to in order to avoid contradicting the Church's current "teachings." Even if doing so would render "infallibility" as practically meaningless since it would be impossible to pin down any interpretation of said statements.
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