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So I hate to say it, but I can definitely see Francis and his cohorts at some point in the near future attempting to strike down Summorum Pontificum and suppress the traditional Latin mass all over again. They will of course use excuse like "preserving the unity of the Church" and other such nonsense. My question though, is what would happen to the canonically regular orders, namely the FSSP and the ICK, if Francis and his cronies abrogate Summorum Pontificum? Obviously both orders predate the Moto Proprio, so I'd like to imagine they wouldn't be affected, that only the diocesan priests celebrating the TLM would be suppressed. Would Francis have to actually abolish these orders, or would abrogating Summorum do the trick? What do you think the reaction would be from these orders if Francis tried to suppress the TLM? If, for example, your local FSSP preist was ordered to cease celebrating the TLM and ordered to say the Novus Ordo, would he comply?

I hope to God this doesn't happen but I can't lie, I definitely see it coming. Francis can't allow the traditional movement to continue, because it is a force of Orthodoxy within the Church that stands totally opposed to his apostasy. It is a remnant part of the Church that would never bow down to pagan idols or permit women "deacons" or allow married priests. I'm quite sure Francis and his demonic minions are entirely convinced that this orthodox remnant must be exorcised from the Church they are trying to irreversibly change into the mystical body of Anti-Christ. So they are going to strike as soon as they feel they can get away with it.

I've already made plans to attend a nearby SSPX chapel should they destroy the absolutely fantastic Institute of Christ the King parish I call home here in Detroit.  But I feel for countless other Catholics out there who do not have the multitude of options we have here in Michigan, who may only have a single diocesan priest who will say the traditional mass. What do you think? Will Francis strike the traditional movement? I almost think the whole purpose behind his trying to reconcile the SSPX was simply to bring them under his authority just to abolish them at a later date. As soon as he discovered that that wouldn't work, and that they would never acquiesce to such an order, the talks ceased and he tried to impose the acceptance of all of Vatican 2 on them. Dark times are ahead, I have no doubt of that.
The first that I'd like to say is that the TLM was never officially suppressed.  In the early years of the post-Vatican II era, there was no provision for allowing it to be offered but that still isn't the same thing as actually suppressing or abrogating it.  Under John Paul II, a limited option was available, called Indult Masses, IIRC.  If Pope Francis aims to attack the traditional movement, I very much doubt that he'd revoke Summorum Pontificum.  Contrary to what anyone might think, Pope Francis is not stupid.  He knows that if he revokes SP and tries to suppress the TLM, officially suppress it that is, he'll only invite the traditionalist movement to take Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's route.  I don't think he'd want that, as he already can't control the SSPX.  To force a large number of traditional priests and laity into a similar situation would only present a painful thorn in his side, one he can't pull out now that he has no control over them.  Instead of inviting that mess on himself, if he aims to reduce access to traditional Masses and the sacraments, he'd likely amend SP so that it effectively guts it, making it more like JPII's provision that allowed a few priests to say the TLM, if their bishop signed off on it.  I don't know what his amendments would be, but they'd have to be limited enough that it wouldn't lead to a widespread trend toward the SSPX's position while at the same time allowing him to reduce the number of TLM options out there.

Here is what I think Pope Francis is likely to do: he'll continue to push the line on heresy, he'll make some liberal reforms (I expect to see a provision allowing older married men to become priests), and he'll try to avoid making any resulting schism look like his fault.  That'll rule out any overtly provocative action like suppressing the TLM.  It'll have to be more covert, if that his aim or part of his program.
This is all based on blind speculation, and the Pope's authority over those orders is absolute, so I don't think we can draw reasonable conclusions about anything that might happen if he decides to act.  And it's certainly not appropriate to make such speculation with the premise that Pope Francis is an apostate or heretic.
(10-22-2019, 02:10 PM)Steven Wrote: [ -> ]This is all based on blind speculation, and the Pope's authority over those orders is absolute, so I don't think we can draw reasonable conclusions about anything that might happen if he decides to act.  And it's certainly not appropriate to make such speculation with the premise that Pope Francis is an apostate or heretic.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, though I think we can use history as a means to make some reasonable conclusions about what might happen if Pope Francis were to do something like the OP's suggestion.  Although some might speculate that Pope Francis is an apostate or heretic, I do not think I am qualified to make that determination, so nothing that I offer here or elsewhere on this forum takes that idea as its premise.
For me, it would be SSPX and Eastern Rite.
I would continue going to my local SSPX parish and await the flood of incoming displaced conservative Catholics.
Quote:And it's certainly not appropriate to make such speculation with the premise that Pope Francis is an apostate or heretic.
I certainly cannot judge the state of another persons soul, so I will never claim that Francis is a formal heretic, though it is starting to look that way, given that he has been admonished for heresy multiple times and has not recanted in any way. Yet no man can truly judge anothers state of soul. However I think we can conclusively say that he is a material heretic. He has publicly stated views, which are his own, that are objectively heretical. I would go further and say that this is actually the case for all the conciliar Popes, but Francis exceeds them all in heresy and pertinacity therein. We can in fact judge that someone is in material heresy.

As for him being an apostate, I can't claim that with any certainty, nor can I make any claims regarding his culpability. However I cannot believe that anyone could do what he does if they have the Catholic faith. His statements and actions are completely contrary to the faith, and he behaves as though the faith isn't true. He behaves and speaks as though Catholicism and all other sects and religions are akin to different flavors of ice cream; everyone has their preferences, to each there own, and at the end of the day it's all ice cream. This is blatant indifferentism and his statements and actions reak of it!

Quote:I do not think I am qualified to make that determination
I'm not qualified to make that determination either, none of us are, and I'm not judging his state of soul or his culpability. But if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. We can't give our shepherds a pass when they blatantly attempt to destroy the church, out of a well-meaning but misplaced fear of "judging". At the end of the day we have to hold fast to our faith and reject the teachings of anyone who teaches contrary to the faith, even if it be a Pope!

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."
- Galatians 1:8
Well said, 1Faith! I agree completely.

As to your OP, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Francis will never revoke SP. What he will do is to oppress and suppress orders and individual Bishops and Priests devoted to the TLM. When it reaches the point that the TLM is only celebrated at 2PM on every fifth Tuesday in a garage in Podunk, he'll say, 'What are you whingeing about? The TLM is still available!'
(10-22-2019, 02:56 PM)1Faith Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not qualified to make that determination either, none of us are, and I'm not judging his state of soul or his culpability. But if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. We can't give our shepherds a pass when they blatantly attempt to destroy the church, out of a well-meaning but misplaced fear of "judging". At the end of the day we have to hold fast to our faith and reject the teachings of anyone who teaches contrary to the faith, even if it be a Pope!

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."
- Galatians 1:8

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear here on this thread.  I don't disagree with your assessment, either.  I think serious errors and questionable teachings have been coming out of Rome since the time of the Second Vatican Council.  I'm not competent enough to say more than that, such as Pope Francis is a heretic or an apostate, or whatever.  But to protect my soul in these uncertain times, I avoid accepting anything new that contradicts what came before 1958.  Mostly, I stick with old catechisms and spiritual classics, plus what I can learn from SSPX priests.  I think we have to walk a delicate line here.  There are obvious, undeniable problems in the Church.  At the same time, I'm just a layman, one who has to do his best to practice the Faith, stay in a state of grace, and make it into Heaven.
Jovan is probably right on this.  Francis won't revoke SP, he just won't support bishops, priests or groups whose spirituality is based on pre conciliar rites or practices. To revoke SP would bring into the news cycle the older practices again, giving them unwanted advertisement. In my own opinion Francis wants to keep traditionalism in a neutralized ghetto out of sight and out of mind.  His words and actions at the Amazon Synod are what he wants for Catholicism. The pre conciliar praxis, rites and theology have no place in that man's vision of the RCC.  

I don't think any future Pope will abolish the old ways, they'll just continue to act and speak in ways that make it seem like anything before the late 60's is an antiquarian, "anti semetic" , backwards and non "inclusive" embarrassment all the while begrudgingly allowing for trads to have their ghetto parishes with their smells and bells as long as they stay quiet and accept the new by "accepting" Vatican II and papal authority.  

This is how the game has been played for decades.
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