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Full Version: Pope calls the idea of Mary as Co-Redemptrix "foolishness"
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(12-14-2019, 12:54 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]Mary does not take on human nature to redeem it in the same way as Christ. Christ is God, Mary is not.  She cannot save or raise up man's fallen nature the way her Son can, even though his human nature was taken from her. 

Good thing Co-Redemptrix doesn't mean any of that, then. You're arguing against a misinterpretation of the term, not what Catholics actually mean by it.

What would have happened if Mary had said no to Gabriel?
(12-14-2019, 04:19 PM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]What would have happened if Mary had said no to Gabriel?
There would have been no Messiah, at least during that time there would be no Messiah. God would just make another sinless lady that also a part of the bloodline of King David. Our Blessed Mother is just as inevitable as our blessed savior because a man cannot be born without a mother, and the Messiah cannot be born without a virgin birth.
(12-14-2019, 02:48 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-14-2019, 12:54 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]Personally I don't see it ever being made into a dogma in the RCC unless by some chance there's some Franciscan trad pope that comes in and does it.

At any rate it's interesting.  Even über trads like the Dimonds are dead against it, so there must be a lot of division surrounding it even in tradland.

That's the beauty of it, it most likely never will be dogma. If you don't like the title, don't use it. I personally never use it, but don't mind it.

I will say though, appealing to the Dimond brothers does not help your argument.
I'm no fan of the Dimonds, I find them cultish and repugnant,  I just found it interesting that in looking into it I found a few objections from the rad trad side (until then I'd thought "co redemptrix" was pretty much something most trads rallied around.  

True enough, it's not likely to ever be set in stone.  I suppose it remains open as a theological opinion that one can take or leave.
“Death came through Eve; life has come through Mary.” - St. Jerome

Far from foolishness; it's impossible for her not to be Co-Redemptrix.

God Bless
(12-14-2019, 04:19 PM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]Good thing Co-Redemptrix doesn't mean any of that, then. You're arguing against a misinterpretation of the term, not what Catholics actually mean by it.

What would have happened if Mary had said no to Gabriel?

One could have just as easily asked this question pre-fall:

"What would God do if Adam and Eve disobeyed?"

These questions are all of the "what if..." variety. It is "foolishness" to debate what isn't and never will be. Mary was a "helper" or "facilitator" of the process but to be honest this co-redemptrix things seems a lot like a flirtation with "Christian / Catholic feminism." It is like throwing women a bone to keep them in Church.

Perhaps the word or translation is the problem. I don't know. I don't have a Ph.D. in theology or linguistics, but I do have a Ph.D. in another subject and I know those 3 letters often stoke of the flames of ego in us "scholars" to curry favor with the multitudes. Theologians aren't immune nor are the clergy.
(12-14-2019, 11:25 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]Mary was a "helper" or "facilitator" of the process


Mary was born without Original Sin, there are only 4 who ever have been, Adam, Eve, Jesus and Mary. It was through Adam and Eve that we fell, Christ is the new Adam, Mary the new Eve, and it is through both Jesus and Mary that we are redeemed. It is Mary that will crush the head of the serpent.

(12-14-2019, 11:25 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]but to be honest this co-redemptrix things seems a lot like a flirtation with "Christian / Catholic feminism." It is like throwing women a bone to keep them in Church.

Far from it. Feminism is the opposite of humility, Our Blessed Mother Mary is all humility and as such is exalted as Queen of Heaven and Earth and indeed Co-Redemptrix. If Christ is the King of Kings, Mary is the Queen of Queens. By being born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, God became flesh of her flesh! Mary was not just some incubator, Mary is the Mother of God, Queen of Queens!

"Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee."

God Bless You
(12-14-2019, 11:25 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]These questions are all of the "what if..." variety. It is "foolishness" to debate what isn't and never will be. Mary was a "helper" or "facilitator" of the process but to be honest this co-redemptrix things seems a lot like a flirtation with "Christian / Catholic feminism." It is like throwing women a bone to keep them in Church.

I'm not sure there's such a thing as Catholic feminism, but if there is, what better example of what it means to be a woman than Mary?

And it's not the women that need keeping in church, especially in Novus Ordo land. The women already run everything there.

Besides, both the titles Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix have been around for centuries, far longer than feminism.
(12-15-2019, 12:03 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: [ -> ]Mary was born without Original Sin, there are only 4 who ever have been, Adam, Eve, Jesus and Mary. It was through Adam and Eve that we fell, Christ is the new Adam, Mary the new Eve, and it is through both Jesus and Mary that we are redeemed. It is Mary that will crush the head of the serpent.

Perhaps but one has to question here if Mary could be born without Original Sin, why not the rest of us? I mean to be honest why did dear ol grand-Adam and grand-Eve's sin become a burden to us all? If your parents committed a crime, should you pay for it? Honestly, I am not a theologian here but I can see a lot of logical issues that arise from insisting that Mary was the first without Original Sin post-fall. One would be better served saying she was the first to be purified by Christ. As a matter of fact it wasn't until 1854 with Pope Pius IX that this was even a dogmatic thing.

(12-15-2019, 12:03 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: [ -> ]Far from it. Feminism is the opposite of humility, Our Blessed Mother Mary is all humility and as such is exalted as Queen of Heaven and Earth and indeed Co-Redemptrix. If Christ is the King of Kings, Mary is the Queen of Queens. By being born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, God became flesh of her flesh! Mary was not just some incubator, Mary is the Mother of God, Queen of Queens!

"Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee."

God Bless You

Well, I don't see or hear the BVM calling herself the co-redemptrix. And to be honest I don't think she really cares about titles when souls are endangered anyway. Feminism isn't necessarily an offense against humility. It is also a usurping of power.

(12-15-2019, 01:05 AM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure there's such a thing as Catholic feminism, but if there is, what better example of what it means to be a woman than Mary?

There isn't a such thing as feminism is entirely incompatible with the basic tenets of Christianity. Feminism is an obsession with power and beating men into submission. Neither is kosher in any branch of Christianity.

(12-15-2019, 01:05 AM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]And it's not the women that need keeping in church, especially in Novus Ordo land. The women already run everything there.

Chicken and egg problem......the reason they run everything is because it has become the good ol girls club which often devolves into the age old feminist adage that man = bad / woman = angelic.

(12-15-2019, 01:05 AM)Paul Wrote: [ -> ]Besides, both the titles Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix have been around for centuries, far longer than feminism.

But wasn't actually dogmatic until 1854 like I said above....
To my simple mind as she intercedes on our behalf to Jesus her son, and Jesus cannot refuse his mother anything - she is Co-redemptrix.
(12-15-2019, 12:40 PM)divinesilence80 Wrote: [ -> ]As a matter of fact it wasn't until 1854 with Pope Pius IX that this was even a dogmatic thing.

That's the Immaculate Conception, which isn't the same thing. But it was believed before then. Pope Pius IX didn't invent it.
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