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(01-10-2020, 02:28 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]If schism requires rejecting communion with the Pope, then it doesn't sound like many of you are in communion with the Pope. What does it mean to be in communion with the Pope?

To accept him as the earthly head of the Church and his authority over the Church. But there are limits on that authority, and to disagree with the Pope when he exceeds them is not schism.
(01-08-2020, 03:05 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-08-2020, 02:00 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-08-2020, 01:47 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]He's speaking as Pope, not off the cuff in some unrecorded interview, not in some private journal somewhere, he is intending to lead Catholics and the world down this road.

And as has been pointed out in this thread and elsewhere, he IS NOT SPEAKING EX CATHEDRA IN ANY WAY THAT REQUIRES US TO BELIEVE. We have had heretic Popes before and the Church has survived. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, outside which their is no salvation, will survive Popes who are immoral (the Pornocracy and the Renaissance), Popes who are heretics (John XXII and Francis come to mind), and Popes who are more interested in the world than in saving souls (again, some of the Renaissance Popes and Francis).  The Church will always remain and those who leave it, leave it at the peril of their immortal souls!

I will be praying for you.
Then why is he the leader? Is his only position to make ex cathedra statements?
On the practical side, I don't understand why there is a pope at all if only his ex cathedra statements have to be listened to. What is  his role then, what is he supposed to do?
 
Popes do more than make the extremely rare ex cathedra statements. They're Bishops of Rome, heads of state, elevators of Bishops and cardinals, in charge of the curia with its tribunals, councils, and congregations, etc.
I didn't even know Benevacantists existed! 
So much I don't know.
Is there a Church document that says it is okay to ignore or disregard everything the pope does or says except for ex cathedra statements?
And what if Jane genuinely thinks the pope is a heretic while Sally genuinely thinks he's not and follows his example and actions and embraces pagan and humanistic ideas thinking the church is progressing and developing their doctrine as time goes on, who are we to judge the pope? How do we know our decision to reject popes decisions and ideas is okay? How do we know that maybe these ideas are not just developments?
(01-11-2020, 01:54 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't even know Benevacantists existed! 
So much I don't know.
Is there a Church document that says it is okay to ignore or disregard everything the pope does or says except for ex cathedra statements?
And what if Jane genuinely thinks the pope is a heretic while Sally genuinely thinks he's not and follows his example and actions and embraces pagan and humanistic ideas thinking the church is progressing and developing their doctrine as time goes on, who are we to judge the pope? How do we know our decision to reject popes decisions and ideas is okay? How do we know that maybe these ideas are not just developments?

Yes they exist and so do sedevacantists, but the problem with going into those is that you are now starting down the path where you easily risk having your teachers be average men or women with little to no theological training, and that can set you down some very strange paths.  However, remaining faithful to the current pontificate and trying to square these round pegs can also leads you down some equally screwy roads. 

There are sedevacantists who believe that since there is no pope and has not been a pope since Pius XII have decided to get their friends together and elect a layman to be "pope", this is where you get the goofy antipope Michael in Kansas.  However those faithful to Francis as being the Pope are now questioning the validity of Vatican I, an absurd and heretical position.  Again, let this crisis not be the test of your faith!

As it has been repeated by MacPasquale, Father Chad Ripperger's book on Magisterial Authority really should be on your reading list and costs the same as a trip to McDonald's or Starbuck's.  Read it and try and get answers there, if you don't like to read, then there are links on YT








Again as it has been stressed, let this should not be the barometer of your faith.  Focus on the Sacraments and receiving grace and accept that this is a crisis where it's father against son, daughter against mother, brother against brother.  We are in a crisis and it will be God who will sort it out.  We as laymen will not be the ones to reform the Church. Merely it may be the sons we rear and teach who go on to become priests and bishops who will be the men to reform.  Our duties as laymen are to remain faithful to the Church and become holy.  These questions regarding this papacy while we cannot ignore them (because we are not stupid), should not so greatly trouble our faith that we seek salvation in the easing of our consciences, as opposed to receiving the Sacraments and staying near to Our Lord who is truly present in the Holy Eucharist.
My husband's response to Father Chad Rippeger's book is, 'Who has the authority to determine what tradition is? A priest or the Roman Pontiff?' He has read the book.
He's read everything everyone here has suggested, quite seriously he has. He is the intellectual one, I think more on the practical level. How can I say this is the ruler of my religion but I ignore him? 
What buddhist ignores buddha? What Muslim ignores Muhammad? What Latter Day Saint ignores Joseph Smith? If I can't make sense of this dizzying mess, how can I explain why I "obey"  (but not really) a humanist, paganistic pope to my evangelical mother?
I feel like Wesley talking to Vizzini! "Truly you have a dizzying intellect!"

I haven't read the book myself but this is a question I also have. Why should I listen to this priest? 
The bottom line is, at least I think it is-or should be: what does the Church say about obedience to the pope?
(01-12-2020, 07:10 PM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]My husband's response to Father Chad Rippeger's book is, 'Who has the authority to determine what tradition is? A priest or the Roman Pontiff?' He has read the book.
He's read everything everyone here has suggested, quite seriously he has. He is the intellectual one, I think more on the practical level. How can I say this is the ruler of my religion but I ignore him? 
What buddhist ignores buddha? What Muslim ignores Muhammad? What Latter Day Saint ignores Joseph Smith? If I can't make sense of this dizzying mess, how can I explain why I "obey"  (but not really) a humanist, paganistic pope to my evangelical mother?
I feel like Wesley talking to Vizzini! "Truly you have a dizzying intellect!"

I haven't read the book myself but this is a question I also have. Why should I listen to this priest? 
The bottom line is, at least I think it is-or should be: what does the Church say about obedience to the pope?

Well clearly your husband thinks he has greater authority over both, since he doesn't wish to listen to this priest who has a masters in theology and a doctorate in philosophy, or Fr Hesse who holds two doctorates in canon law and theology.  Tradition is determined by the Church, in which the Pope is the visible head of that Church, but he is not the Supreme Head of the Church, that belongs to Jesus Christ. 

I will sum up what Fr Hesse has said:  "The Pope is not the President, he is the vice-president."  The Pope is not God and he does not have unlimited powers to change that which the Church has declared to be infallible teaching.

You tell your mother you "obey" the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra and frankly if she gives you too much grief then tell her that as a Protestant she wouldn't understand.  The Church has had "bad" Popes.  When Pope John XII murdered and committed adultery, does that mean we should get mistresses and go round killing too?  NO!  When Pope Alexander VI bribed his way into the papacy and and invited prostitutes to engage in an orgy, does that mean we too should follow him?  NO!

People on here are giving you words of priests with advance theological training who are quoting doctrine, Church Teaching, Papal documents, Encyclicals...they are not pulling this out of their rears.
Why do you have to get nasty to someone who is struggling? I haven't been offensive to anyone on here, why do you have to get like that?
I was a Protestant once, I'm not going to talk to my mom like that, I understand her confusion.
I'm sorry if I seem like I'm rejecting the advice given. I don't have time to do all the reading suggested here, I intend to listen to the videos tomorrow when I have time. I trust my husband's opinion because he's smarter than I and has done the reading.
I just thought that if there was a Church document stating that it was okay to ignore the pope or that a pope can be a heretic, the people here would know and I wouldn't need to spend the time searching Church documents for that info. If someone has already given me that info I apologize for having missed it. I will reread the posts to make sure I didn't miss something.
(01-13-2020, 02:37 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]I just thought that if there was a Church document stating that it was okay to ignore the pope or that a pope can be a heretic, the people here would know and I wouldn't need to spend the time searching Church documents for that info.
 
We don't need a 'Church document'. There have been Popes who were heretics. Honorius I was declared anathema by the Third Œcumenical Council of Constantinople, which in its 13th session, said, "And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to [Patriarch] Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines."

The Sixteenth Session adds: "To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema! To Sergius, the heretic, anathema! To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema! To Honorius, the heretic, anathema! To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema!"

Granted, this was 'eased' by Pope Leo II, but without lifting the anathema. He said, "We anathematize ... Honorius, who did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of Apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted."

John XXII was a notorious, open heretic who only repented of his heresy on his death bed.

Both these men are still considered to have been legitimate Popes by the Church. They are included in the official list of the Popes issued by the Vatican.


Praying for you!
(01-13-2020, 02:37 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]Why do you have to get nasty to someone who is struggling? I haven't been offensive to anyone on here, why do you have to get like that?
I was a Protestant once, I'm not going to talk to my mom like that, I understand her confusion.
I'm sorry if I seem like I'm rejecting the advice given. I don't have time to do all the reading suggested here, I intend to listen to the videos tomorrow when I have time. I trust my husband's opinion because he's smarter than I and has done the reading.
I just thought that if there was a Church document stating that it was okay to ignore the pope or that a pope can be a heretic, the people here would know and I wouldn't need to spend the time searching Church documents for that info. If someone has already given me that info I apologize for having missed it. I will reread the posts to make sure I didn't miss something.

I'm sorry if I came off rash, but people are taking the time to try and give you good, concrete answers.  I apologize for sounding nasty and it is not my intention to.  I was not trying to be nasty, but since that's how it came off, I'm sorry.  I do understand your frustration and concern. 

I was a Protestant too and again perhaps my suggestion was too blunt, but the truth is Protestants really do have a different way of thinking.  I was a Protestant once too and many Protestants have the mindset of "I don't need authority because the Bible is my authority."  So whenever a pastor does something sinful, then the Protestant can just reject their ministry and move on to something else. 

Catholics will continue to go to a wretched priest because being Catholic means submitting yourself to the Church and the Lord's anointed.  Now does that mean I have to go along with his tie-dye vestments and ecumenical sing-alongs?  No, but when he is delivering me the Sacraments, I can have confidence that they are efficacious because one does not lose their vocation because they are a lousy priest.  When that same wretched priest tells me I have to do (pray the Our Father once) does that mean I can just say to myself "Well that is a lousy penance, I will give myself penance and something more strenuous."  Again, No.  He is the priest and while he cannot bind me to a doctrine that is contrary to the Faith, he can bind my sins based on the penance he has given me and if I want full absolution, I must obey and do what he tells me to, I must pray that single Our Father.  Now, if he said I had to say a prayer of a different religion, or ask me to do something that is contrary to the Church, then I am free to reject and attempt to do my own penance.  However in the case of the latter it would be best to simply avoid that priest altogether and find a different one.

As Jovan said, we don't have a Church document.  Tell your detractors that just because there was no Church document on Papal Infallibility for centuries does not mean that people ceased being Catholics because of one issue. Nor does it mean that what the Church declared in 1870 was something new.  In regards to this current papacy as I have stated we are all kinda going in different directions, but my hope ---and I hope it is shared--- is that irregardless if you find yourself a benevacantist, sedevacantists, R&R, or conservative Catholics like Catholic Answers & Co, that we all are praying for a swift resolution.  That God will intervene and the errors of the past and present are corrected and we who profess One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Faith will become united again under a Pope where there are no fears or concerns if he will introduce novelties or make heresies.

Quote:"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."  Vatican I, 1870

"For this reason the Fathers of the Vatican Council laid down nothing new, but followed divine revelation and the acknowledged and invariable teaching of the Church as to the very nature of faith, when they decreed as follows: "All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written or unwritten word of God, and which are pro posed by the Church as divinely revealed, either by a solemn definition or in the exercise of its ordinary and universal Magisterium" (Sess. iii., cap. 3)" Encyclical On the Unity of the Church by Pope Leo XIII, 1896

"But for Catholics nothing will remove the authority of the second Council of Nicea, where it condemns those "who dare, after the impious fashion of heretics, to deride the ecclesiastical traditions, to invent novelties of some kind...or endeavor by malice or craft to overthrow any one of the legitimate traditions of the Catholic Church"; nor that of the declaration of the fourth Council of Constantinople: "We therefore profess to preserve and guard the rules bequeathed to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the Holy and most illustrious Apostles, by the orthodox Councils, both general and local, and by everyone of those divine interpreters, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church." Wherefore the Roman Pontiffs, Pius IV and Pius IX, ordered the insertion in the profession of faith of the following declaration: "I most firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and other observances and constitutions of the Church." Encyclical On the Doctrine of the Modernists by Pope Pius X, 1907


The last quote from Saint Pope Pius X of happy memory, is why we as Catholics can reject a Pope when he dares to follow that of heretics.  We are bound to the same holy Ecumenical Councils that forbade us to act in the ways of the heretics.
(01-13-2020, 02:37 AM)Missbeliever Wrote: [ -> ]I just thought that if there was a Church document stating that it was okay to ignore the pope or that a pope can be a heretic, the people here would know and I wouldn't need to spend the time searching Church documents for that info.

You seem to have made up your mind that the Pope is teaching contrary to doctrine and want official permission to disagree with him on it.  I get it, I'm there myself.  Your not going to get a clear answer.  The Pope can do pretty much whatever he wants because most of our bishops are weak and there are virtually no checks and balances.

Ultimately you have to follow your conscience and hope that it is well formed by good Catholic catechesis and reason.  If someone tells you to do something that goes against your conscience, even the Pope, go with your conscience.  Unfortunately, poor catechesis is all too common and can lead to an ill formed conscience.  In the end though, you have to work with what you have and continuously seek the truth.  

Saint John Henry Newman has a pretty good quote touching on this, "I shall drink to the Pope, if you please, still, to conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards."

Pope Francis reaffirmed primacy of conscience when it came to Amoris Laetitia a few years back, which can be both a validation of the teaching and a warning that it can lead you down the wrong path. 

When I question the Pope, or any cleric for that matter, I look to the Bible, the current and older Catechisms, the saints, tradition, and so on to check myself.  If I think he's wrong, I won't follow him on it.  Hopefully my conscience is in sync with true Catholic teaching, or at least close to it.
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