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I'm in a lot of pro-life debate groups on Facebook, and recently there was a big to-do about a meme somebody shared with a picture of recent female oscar-winner at the Golden Globes (can't remember her name, never heard of her) with the words "I'm a murderous whore and I killed my baby for this golden idol." This visibly pregnant actress apparently received her Oscar on stage and publicly praised the decision she'd made in the past to have an abortion in order to advance her career. It was, frankly, nothing short of appalling. 

However, lots of people in the group got upset and claimed that we should never call post-abortive women "whores" or any names whatsoever. I'm not sure what to think about this. Of course, if the woman is repentant, it would be wrong to call her a murderer or anything of the sort. But what about the many, many women out there who gleefully celebrate their abortions and display no regret or shame whatsoever? I don't think calling them names is an effective tactic either, but I understand why pro-life people do it out of frustration and anger and disbelief that a woman could willfully murder her own baby and celebrate it afterwards. I don't think it's right or Catholic to call anybody names, whether they deserve it or not, but I do see the value in telling the truth how it is, and this actress certainly was a harlot who slept around and then murdered the resulting baby because it got in the way of her lifestyle. 

Which brings me to my second point. I've never had an abortion, and I'm currently pregnant. And I'm having a really hard time understanding how women are "tricked" or "coerced" into murdering their own child. Abortion is murder, and undeniably so. However, we don't use the same excuses for homicide that we do for abortion. We don't say to the man or woman who stabbed their spouse to death or to the single mom who drowned her son in the bathtub, "oh, you were tricked into it, you didn't know any better, you were forced." Therefore, should we not treat post abortive women, especially the ones who don't regret it, the same way we treat folks who kill other living beings and are prosecuted by the law? 

Yes, of course many women are sorry for their abortions and regret having them. But I'm sure there are a lot of people currently in prison for murder who are sorry for what they have done, too. Why do women who murder their own children get a free pass from the law? Would it be a good deterrent for abortion to have the penalty be life in prison, similar to how the majority of people are sentenced for infanticide when they murder a baby who happens to be outside the womb instead of inside it? 

I have heard and read the stories of many post-abortive women who always seem to play the victim card when it comes to talking about their abortions. "I was forced into it, the doctor tricked me, I didn't have a choice...." But you can't tell me that those women didn't know exactly what they were doing. You can't tell me that these women were so ignorant of biology and devoid of common sense and morality that they "just didn't know" they were ripping an innocent baby limb from limb. It makes no difference if you are dirt poor, sixteen years old, on the path to stardom, or if you already have 27 kids; murder is still murder, and murder is inexcusable. Any excuse for abortion, including ignorance, seems like a cop-out to me. 

Thoughts? Or am I turning into a raving lunatic thanks to my pregnancy hormones?
Its all about CHOICE...right?

Do you want to be a Mother or a Murderess?
(01-07-2020, 12:40 PM)SacraCor714 Wrote: [ -> ](snip)

Which brings me to my second point. I've never had an abortion, and I'm currently pregnant. And I'm having a really hard time understanding how women are "tricked" or "coerced" into murdering their own child. Abortion is murder, and undeniably so. However, we don't use the same excuses for homicide that we do for abortion. We don't say to the man or woman who stabbed their spouse to death or to the single mom who drowned her son in the bathtub, "oh, you were tricked into it, you didn't know any better, you were forced." Therefore, should we not treat post abortive women, especially the ones who don't regret it, the same way we treat folks who kill other living beings and are prosecuted by the law? 

The unborn are hidden, so they're easy to dehumanize, especially when you're told all your life that they're nothing but "clumps of cells." How a woman could do that after quickening is more mysterious to me.

Quote:Yes, of course many women are sorry for their abortions and regret having them. But I'm sure there are a lot of people currently in prison for murder who are sorry for what they have done, too. Why do women who murder their own children get a free pass from the law? Would it be a good deterrent for abortion to have the penalty be life in prison, similar to how the majority of people are sentenced for infanticide when they murder a baby who happens to be outside the womb instead of inside it?

They "get a free pass from the law" because it's not against the law to murder the unborn if you're the one who's pregnant.

Me, I assume punishment would be a deterrent. But it'd have to come to not be seen as a legal right before that happens.

Quote:I have heard and read the stories of many post-abortive women who always seem to play the victim card when it comes to talking about their abortions. "I was forced into it, the doctor tricked me, I didn't have a choice...." But you can't tell me that those women didn't know exactly what they were doing. You can't tell me that these women were so ignorant of biology and devoid of common sense and morality that they "just didn't know" they were ripping an innocent baby limb from limb. It makes no difference if you are dirt poor, sixteen years old, on the path to stardom, or if you already have 27 kids; murder is still murder, and murder is inexcusable. Any excuse for abortion, including ignorance, seems like a cop-out to me. 
 
Like I said, the unborn are hidden. And when they're very young, they're tiny and look bizarre and alien. They're easy for people to dehumanize.
SacraCor714 Wrote:Which brings me to my second point. I've never had an abortion, and I'm currently pregnant. And I'm having a really hard time understanding how women are "tricked" or "coerced" into murdering their own child.

Desensitization.  As Vox said, the unborn are hidden.  Repeat the lie often enough that they're not human, clump of cells, etc, and people start to believe it.  For the record, I'm still waiting for someone to say that their "non-human clump of cells" turned out to be a pony.  Then throw in birth control, to disconnect people from the consequences of sex, and contributing to a general mindset of children being a) an obstacle to success, or b) an accessory.  Then give someone a financial incentive to kill the unborn, and it's a giant mess.

Quote:Why do women who murder their own children get a free pass from the law? Would it be a good deterrent for abortion to have the penalty be life in prison, similar to how the majority of people are sentenced for infanticide when they murder a baby who happens to be outside the womb instead of inside it? 

The one that kills me is how in many states, a pregnant woman can kill her "non-human clump of cells", but if someone were to kill that same woman, they can be charged with two murders: the mother and the "no longer a non-human clump of cells" baby.


Quote:Or am I turning into a raving lunatic thanks to my pregnancy hormones?

Are you sure it's because of the pregnancy? :P  ;)  (I'm joking, of course)
(01-07-2020, 02:56 PM)Jeeter Wrote: [ -> ]The one that kills me is how in many states, a pregnant woman can kill her "non-human clump of cells", but if someone were to kill that same woman, they can be charged with two murders: the mother and the "no longer a non-human clump of cells" baby.

Because the legislators in those states know it's two lives, but the Supreme Court won't let them outlaw abortion. And the last time the states tried to go against the federal government, they lost the war.

(01-07-2020, 02:56 PM)SacraCor Wrote: [ -> ]Which brings me to my second point. I've never had an abortion, and I'm currently pregnant. And I'm having a really hard time understanding how women are "tricked" or "coerced" into murdering their own child. Abortion is murder, and undeniably so. However, we don't use the same excuses for homicide that we do for abortion. We don't say to the man or woman who stabbed their spouse to death or to the single mom who drowned her son in the bathtub, "oh, you were tricked into it, you didn't know any better, you were forced." Therefore, should we not treat post abortive women, especially the ones who don't regret it, the same way we treat folks who kill other living beings and are prosecuted by the law?

Maybe some of them really think it's not human yet, since they're told that it's just a clump of cells. But I suspect many of them do know exactly what they're doing, like the actress you mentioned, and have abortions out of pure selfishness. And part of it is the fault of the pro-life movement, who chooses to focus on the doctors providing abortions rather than the women. Perhaps it's to make it more politically palatable and more likely to convince pro-abortion women that it's not 'anti-women'. Remember the big controversy during the last presidential election when Trump said that women who have abortions should be punished if it were illegal, and how many people criticised him for it. And many of those were pro-life.


(01-07-2020, 02:56 PM)SacraCor Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, of course many women are sorry for their abortions and regret having them. But I'm sure there are a lot of people currently in prison for murder who are sorry for what they have done, too. Why do women who murder their own children get a free pass from the law? Would it be a good deterrent for abortion to have the penalty be life in prison, similar to how the majority of people are sentenced for infanticide when they murder a baby who happens to be outside the womb instead of inside it?

Outlawing abortion would be a deterrent, not in every case, but enough to get rid of it being done openly. The correct law, in my opinion, would be to make abortion aggravated murder, the same as, for example, murder-for-hire or the murder of a police officer, making both the abortionist and the mother eligible for the death penalty. It's not only the murder of an innocent, defenceless child, but of the mother's own child at her desire, the child she has the highest duty to protect. And this would be in a world where abortion is illegal, not a right, so anyone having an abortion would know she's committing murder, at least legally, even if she doesn't accept it as such. It'll certainly deter at least some women, and the lack of access to legal abortion will deter even more.

And the argument that women will die in back-alley abortions is nonsense. That's like saying we should legalise bank robbery to keep bank robbers from getting shot by the police. Don't murder people in risky medical procedures.
My only 1st hand knowledge is based on three women who became pregnant in high school.
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One, the much older boyfriend and the mom pressured the young girl to have an abortion.  Yes, Catholics.
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One, her parents wanted her to have an abortion and she refused. Parents refused to support her or her baby.  Yes, Catholics.
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The other, the parents did not want the girl to have an abortion. They provided full, parental support for a teenager in a tough situation.  Yes, Catholics.
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16 year old girls are not adults, they don't think like adults, they often don't think past next month, so you can pressure them by telling them their life will be ruined if they follow thru with the pregnancy.   I mean, they sure didn't think things thru when they had sex, did they?   And when pregnant we feel, are really are, vulnerable.  So it is often the boyfriend and the parents who want the abortion. They are embarrassed that their child had sex and was so careless or ignorant that she got pregnant - what will our friends say? - so they want the problem to go away.  They want their daughter to go to college and "make something of herself" and they think a baby would prevent that.  The first one, her parents didn't want anyone to know that their good Catholic daughter was having sex - they killed their own grandchild, another human being, so they would not be embarrassed.
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I can't understand the adult woman who has an abortion by choice.  It is really her choice?  Or is she pressured by her single friends or her boyfriend?  What choice would she make if her boyfriend was happy and excited about the baby, if he promised to stand by her and support her, if he asked her to marry him?  With adults I think it is still juvenile thinking, not being able to see a future that is flexible.  Most humans throughout history were not planned but today we seem to think that all babies should arrive on schedule, after all, the glamorous people online seem to get pregnant whenever they want to and have babies at the most convenient time in their careers.
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And a culture of selfishness, lack of self-sacrifice, a disconnect between sex and procreation that can be overwhelming in our Western culture.
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I have never met a woman who does not regret her abortion.  20-30 years later they still grieve, they still feel pain, they still cry themselves to sleep.  They tell themselves that the baby is in heaven.  I don't think that putting them in jail would help, it is a cultural thing, very sad.  We have to actually teach our children that life begins at conception, that babies are real human beings with souls, and we have to start that teaching at a young age.  When teaching children about life you don't have to talk about abortion, just talk about life and the gift from God and Mommy and Daddy were so happy and excited when we found out that God was giving us a baby.
(01-07-2020, 07:48 PM)MaryTN Wrote: [ -> ]I have never met a woman who does not regret her abortion.  20-30 years later they still grieve, they still feel pain, they still cry themselves to sleep.


Michelle Williams didn't seem to. Dead babies get you fame and shiny statues. If she really regrets it, she wouldn't be boasting about it on national TV. Maybe the women you know do, but that doesn't mean there aren't women like her.



(01-07-2020, 07:48 PM)MaryTN Wrote: [ -> ]They tell themselves that the baby is in heaven.


Council of Florence. It's not.



(01-07-2020, 07:48 PM)MaryTN Wrote: [ -> ]16 year old girls are not adults, they don't think like adults, they often don't think past next month, so you can pressure them by telling them their life will be ruined if they follow thru with the pregnancy.  I mean, they sure didn't think things thru when they had sex, did they?  And when pregnant we feel, are really are, vulnerable.  So it is often the boyfriend and the parents who want the abortion. They are embarrassed that their child had sex and was so careless or ignorant that she got pregnant - what will our friends say? - so they want the problem to go away.  They want their daughter to go to college and "make something of herself" and they think a baby would prevent that.  The first one, her parents didn't want anyone to know that their good Catholic daughter was having sex - they killed their own grandchild, another human being, so they would not be embarrassed.

Thanks, feminism! It's feminism that tells girls and women that motherhood is an impediment to what's really important, a career. The idea that a mother's life is ruined is nonsense, and it's even more nonsense when there's this thing called school that children go to for most of the day once they're four or five until they're eighteen, so if the mother needs to work, she can, most of the day. And if the parents are around, they can help. But instead they're so focused on material things that they've bought feminism's hatred of motherhood and the idea that business is more important than raising and educating the next generation.

And then feminism drives down wages - double the supply, prices go down - so now both parents have to work. Especially if it's sexist to pay a man more because he has a family to support, to allow women to take care of their children. But, hey, murder's cheaper than higher wages and 18 years of medical care.


(01-07-2020, 07:48 PM)MaryTN Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that putting them in jail would help, it is a cultural thing, very sad.  We have to actually teach our children that life begins at conception, that babies are real human beings with souls, and we have to start that teaching at a young age.  When teaching children about life you don't have to talk about abortion, just talk about life and the gift from God and Mommy and Daddy were so happy and excited when we found out that God was giving us a baby.



You can't when the law says it's okay to murder a baby, as long as it hasn't come out of the magical, personhood-bestowing vagina yet. At least not all the way, because the magic doesn't work until the head is out.



But if the state passes a law saying abortion is murder, that affects the culture. There's no longer the excuse of 'it's a constitutional right'. There's no longer Planned Parenthood running its clinics. Everyone's on notice that this is a crime, and, like any other crime, if you're caught, there's a penalty. In this case, potentially death. You wouldn't have as many parents pressuring their pregnant 16-year-old daughter to abort, since it's illegal. Some might, but being pressured is not a defence to murder. Obviously a lot of education would have to take place, but, really, how hard is it for schools to tell teenagers that abortion is a crime, and if you have one, it's murder, and you're going to prison.



Maybe a 14-year-old whose parents threaten her and drag her off to have an illegal abortion shouldn't go to jail for life. But her parents absolutely should, at minimum, and the 'doctor' should be executed. He's got no excuse whatsoever, as much as he'll claim he's only trying to prevent young girls from ruining their lives.



Michelle Williams has no excuse, either. In a sane society, she'd be in prison for murder. If she had said that she threw her newborn out the window onto the freeway, because the child was interfering with her career, everyone would say she's a murderer and needs prison. In a society where abortion is outlawed, why should it be any different?
Spot on, Paul! I couldn't agree more.
I only know two women in my life that have ever had an abortion. One is my fiancé's former friend, V (a cultural muslim). She had one because she was young and didn't want a baby to hold her down. It didn't help that the "man" (he wasn't mature enough to really be called one) was a walking metaphorical pile of dookie. After the abortion she instantly regretted it and she confessed that she wanted to take it back. She lives with that regret for rest of her days. (And her and my significant other fell out of friendship out of a completely different matter).

The other woman I know that had one was my fiancé's mother (a cultural catholic). After her divorce to her daughter's father she dated different men. Eventually got pregnant with a horrid man she wanted nothing to do with (after coming to her senses of course). That would have been my fiancé's brother had he been alive today. She too regrets it's and always told my woman to never get one. 

Maybe my little bubble is exactly that, little and not indicative of women everywhere, but I too find it hard to believe that there are women out there that murdered their child and have no regrets about it. A part of me thinks there is still a sliver of humanity in their brains feeling guilty for taking the life of a most innocent human being. 

Also, congratulations on having a little gift from God. I hope s/he grows up to be a fine champion of Jesus Christ! God love you and your family.
(01-08-2020, 03:35 PM)CarmeliteKnight Wrote: [ -> ]One is my fiancé's former friend, V (a cultural muslim).

Hate to be 'that guy', but this one always gets on my nerves. You're a man, so unless you're intending to marry another man, she's your fiancée. You are her fiancé. Feminine nouns in French often have an e where the masculine form doesn't.

And unlike many spelling mistakes, this one can make things very confusing. Especially nowadays.
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