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Hi guys. I've been in a Christian forum and I've been observing the people on their talk about being born again
So firstly i would like some help to confirm the requirements needed to get saved as taught by the RCC. Just correct my errors here please.
And after we've confirmed it i would like to discuss what I read in this forum about the protestants different beliefs in born again

First we get baptized which for us is the same or similar to being born again. We basically receive the Holy Spirit.
Do we now have the gift of salvation or do we receive God's grace here?

As we grow up we have our first Holy Communion and Confirmation. 
Is this part of the works that is required to keep our salvation? Or do we get our salvation when we first receive Christ in Holy Communion?

Correct me if im wrong but at this point we already have God's grace and salvation
We must now walk in the steps of Christ to perform deeds/works which are required to keep our salvation

Have true faith from the heart and continue in communion with Christ.
Do our best to live our lives in the steps of Christ and repent/confess regularly

Is this correct? If not can you please show me where and what it should be?
(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]Hi guys. I've been in a Christian forum and I've been observing the people on their talk about being born again

Maybe not the best idea if you don't have all your ducks in a row, so just be careful.

(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]So firstly i would like some help to confirm the requirements needed to get saved as taught by the RCC. Just correct my errors here please.

The Catholic understanding is that "salvation" is what happens when, at the end of one's life there is a conjuction of two things : Sanctifying Grace in one's soul and Death. That is the formula for heaven.

One who is on that path because he is in the State of Grace now is "justified" and it is this process that beings a man to be "justified" that we call "justification."

Protestants mix the terms up very easily. They often speak of "being saved" as what happens when they decide to believe in Christ. That comes from the Calvinist notion that once one has decided the Jesus Christ is someone special (I'm not sure many Protestant really believe He's actually God, or at least they have a very ambiguous notion of this, and what exactly they mean by "accepting Jesus as your personal savior" is not precisely clear) he's going to heaven no matter what else he does. They think that's salvation, but justification (what makes someone "just" or "holy") either never really happens or is what happens in heaven.

So, be aware of the terminology problems here.

(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]First we get baptized which for us is the same or similar to being born again. We basically receive the Holy Spirit.
Do we now have the gift of salvation or do we receive God's grace here?

Baptism is exactly what we mean by being "born again". That Scriptural phase is from St John 3.5 and is actually "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

This was to differentiate it from the Baptism of John, which was not sufficient (Cf. Acts 19, where St Paul gives Baptism to those who had only be baptized by John the Baptist).

When Baptized we receive Sanctifying Grace and all of the Virtues and Gifts of the Holy Ghost. We are given an indelible mark on our soul called the "Baptismal Character" which makes us a member of the Church, we are made children of God, and "justified" or made good in the eyes of God (we are actually made good, and not just in appearance only).

This is not Salvation (which as above happens at the end of our life). It is Justification. To be Just is to be Holy. Sanctifying Grace, which we receive, makes us to be Holy.

(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]As we grow up we have our first Holy Communion and Confirmation. 
Is this part of the works that is required to keep our salvation? Or do we get our salvation when we first receive Christ in Holy Communion?

It's not salvation we are keeping. We are maintaining Sanctifying Grace, and increasing the amount we are capable of having. The image I like to use is that our reservoir gets bigger when we receive another Sacrament.

Confirmation perfects the use of the Virtues and "activates" the use of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost so that we become more docile to them and more apt to correspond to the Holy Ghost using those gifts in us.

Communion helps us to increase in Charity and Grace, but also in merit because of the acts of Faith, Hope and Charity required.

These are not necessary in that one who dies without them is not saved, but for those capable of receiving them, but who don't it is neglecting an essential means. Our Lord says as much in the second half of St John, chapter 6.

To be clear, these assist us to keep our Justification, not Salvation. Salvation happens at the end of our life. Justification happens now.

(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]Correct me if im wrong but at this point we already have God's grace and salvation

Okay. You're wrong. We have Sanctifying Grace, but not salvation. We have Justification, but we await Salvation and pray for it.

(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]We must now walk in the steps of Christ to perform deeds/works which are required to keep our salvation

Essentially, keeping God's Law (Natural or directly expressed) through moral actions and living in conformity with Christ is exactly how we keep Sanctifying Grace/Justification.

If we do, we have every hope that at the end of our life, we will be saved, and God will arrange that we die in the State of Grace. Since we cannot produce Sanctifying Grace ourselves, nor do we have control over our death (at least not unless we commit a grave sin), only God can arrange those two things to coincide. We call that Final Perseverance, and we cannot merit it, only pray for it. The best guarantee that we receive it, though, is to live well now.

The reason we do certain works/deed (and not "works of the Law" which was the Mosiac Law) now is to cooperate with God's grace and because we have a Supernatural Principle (Sanctifying Grace) in us, earn a Supernatural reward we call merit. That merit, cause by God when we cooperate with Him, is what ensure that when we need certain graces to stay in Sanctifying Grace or grow in Charity or some other virtue, we have those. We've "earned" thanks to God's help, and the merits of Jesus Christ to whom we are conformed (so indirectly are worthy of reward) those graces.
Do you have a pastor? If so, I suggest you bring these questions to him.

At least, that's what I did when I returned to the Church a year and a half ago. I contacted my pastor and made an appointment, and asked him my questions. If I want expert answers, I figure it's best to go to an expert.

God bless!
(02-27-2020, 12:21 AM)Mark Trahan Wrote: [ -> ]Do you have a pastor?  If so, I suggest you bring these questions to him. 

I don't believe Porkncheese is Catholic so I doubt he would get 'expert' answers from his pastor.
jovan66102 Wrote:I don't believe Porkncheese is Catholic so I doubt he would get 'expert' answers from his pastor.


I am Catholic, just an uneducated one. My parents are good Catholics like most Portuguese people are. We would go to mass every Sunday and pray the rosary every day.

Being from small European villages my parents had only a basic knowledge of Catholicism but huge faith
I went to a Catholic high school but they didn't teach us the religion very well. It was a soften liberal version of Catholicism.

I've learnt a lot since I came to believe in Christ about 9 months ago. Before that i had never even heard of terms such as; Magisterium, Holy See, dogmas, papal infallibility, Catechism, sola scripture, countless protestant denominations and heaps more.

The biggest lessons for me has been learning about the inadequacy of sola scripture and the biggest hurdle, understanding papal infallibility, accepting it and then having faith in it.

People would often say "the Holy Spirit is with the church" when trying to tell me about papal infallibility. But I kept thinking how can this be given the inquisition, wars, scandals, etc... I was stuck there for a while.

One day someone gave me a more specific definition, he said something like, "the Catholic church will not lead its people astray. The Holy Spirit guides the Churches teachings". That changed everything. Now I was focused on the teachings of the church. Being a skeptic i tried to see if i could prove any teaching to be false.

What i found was that although one can look at immaculate conception for example, and say there isn't solid scriptural evidence for it, one cannot actually find any evidence to prove that it is incorrect. So the bible might not explicitly verify it, but the bible does not deny it either. Hope that made sense.

All my questions and doubts about dogmas, Mary, etc all boiled down to understanding, accepting and having faith in papal infallibility.
Add to that the inadequacies i learnt about sola scripture. The multiple protestant divisions seemingly caused by sola scripture and a lack of authority and my faith in papal infallibility just flourished.

There are other things I learnt that helped as well. Mainly the acknowledgement that the RCC is the number one authority in exorcisms. Jesus gave his disciples the power to drive out demons, the RCC is still the best at driving out demons. God must truly be with the RCC.

I take no credit for learning what i have because it has only been possible by the will of God I believe and so im very grateful.

A problem is that im not in a parish. I know, i know, I need to do that asap.

Lent just began so there is no better time than now. I will try and make an appointment with the parish priest on Saturday, make a confession, introduce myself and give him a brief on where iv come from. Then i will be ready for mass and communion on Sunday.

Ok i'll respond to MagisterMusicae in the next post to make sure i understand everything.
(02-27-2020, 02:29 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]I am Catholic,

I apologise for my misunderstanding. I hope you have a holy Lent.
MagisterMusicae Wrote:Maybe not the best idea if you don't have all your ducks in a row, so just be careful.

Thanks for the explanation, i appreciate it.

I wasn't debating them and I don't plan to. I don't even have any ducks to stack into rows. I also wasn't trying to join them. I would just watch, ask some questions, learn and compare it to RCC teachings. Learning about them increased my faith in the RCC cos of the flaws i found.

MagisterMusicae Wrote:They often speak of "being saved"

Oh some of the things i was seeing was making sick.
Well discuss that later if u like. I want to make sure I understand your explanation first.

Salvation only happens at death if we have Sanctifying grace which was received in baptism.
Justification is basically the same as Sanctifying grace, received through baptism along with the Holy Spirit (same as Holy Ghost right?)

But we can fall out of grace if we take the wrong path. I obviously would have, being away from God for about 20 years. Would i have to do anything extra to regain my justification? Or do i repent (which i have done and will always do) and continue on in Christ's footsteps?

Im just cringing now at how many times u had to correct me and say "no your not saved your justified" cos i actually learnt that a few months ago. Sorry

So the Sacraments maintain our Sanctifying Grace and increases the amount we are capable of having.
I need to get back in communion with Christ

U know how they say they receive Christ through some kind of epiphany or enlightenment. We don't have to do that do we? Having to discern weather u had a "born again" moment or weather it was just a thought, dream, hallucination, imagination, evil deception, feeling etc. We receive Christ through the Eucharist right?

And finally to keep hold of Sanctifying grace we must keep God's Law through moral actions and living in conformity with Christ. For we will be judged according to what we have done, right. It's everywhere, Rev 20, James 2, Paul says it, Jesus says it and the RCC says it.


This "faith alone" doctrine they have is so false. 
Some believe "Once saved always saved" which just produces these self righteous millenials who create their own false morals.
But we''ll get on to that later. 

Can u please go over my 2nd draft to confirm its correctness? 
And answer those few questions I had, especially the one about me possibly loosing my Justification?
(02-27-2020, 02:40 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]I apologise for my misunderstanding. I hope you have a holy Lent.

Think nothing of it my friend. Same to you and God Bless
(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]Salvation only happens at death if we have Sanctifying grace which was received in baptism.
Justification is basically the same as Sanctifying grace, received through baptism along with the Holy Spirit (same as Holy Ghost right?)

Sanctifying Grace is the thing that causes Justification (it makes us good).

Justification is the process and the state of being good, so "the State of Grace". We often use these interchangeably, but there is a distinction between cause, process and effect.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]But we can fall out of grace if we take the wrong path.

Yes. Mortal sin destroys this Justification, because by it we turn away from God and towards a Creature.

Venial sin harms the relationship and makes the operating of grace more difficult, but does not destroy it, so one who merely commits a venial sin does not lose Sanctifying Grace and his Justification.

Venial sin is like a wound or a sprained ankle caused by something dumb we did. Mortal sin is like a shotgun blast to the chest.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]I obviously would have, being away from God for about 20 years. Would i have to do anything extra to regain my justification? Or do i repent (which i have done and will always do) and continue on in Christ's footsteps?

There's a double turn away, so a double turn needed to return.

Firstly, you need to fix the turn away from God part.

That is fixed by Confession with a supernatural sorrow for sins. We call that sorrow that hates sin because it is an offense to God "Contrition" or sometimes you will hear "perfect Contrition." We call the sorrow from the fear of Hell or loss of Heaven, or any other supernatural motive "Attrition" or an "imperfect Contrition".

For Confession you need at least attrition. The absolution by the priest removes the guilt for those sins and the eternal punishment.

If you had perfect Contrition, which is thanks only to a special grace of God, which we can never be certain actually exists, then this would forgive your sins immediately, but the Church demands we still confess before returning to receiving Communion (it is a sacrilege to receive Communion when not in the State of Grace). So while we should try to make a perfect act of Contrition, we can never rely on it.

Extreme Unction also removes sin, even mortal sin, when it is impossible to confess, provided we had at least attrition before becoming unable to confess.

Baptism removes all sin as well.

Normally, it's confession that fixes problem number one.

Problem number two, the turn towards a creature, is fixed by penance. This misuse of creatures harms us and Creation, and so there is some order to be restored even on a natural level. We call this "temporal punishment". To fix this we need to do acts of penance, the best of which is to correctly and rightly use creatures, and deny ourselves some legitimate use of creatures from time to time.

This is why the Protestant sorrow for sins is insufficient. It asks one to be sorry without trying to make him supernaturally sorrow, and never tries to restore the damage to self or Creation.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]Im just cringing now at how many times u had to correct me and say "no your not saved your justified" cos i actually learnt that a few months ago. Sorry

Easy to forget. Good to be reminded. No worries.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]So the Sacraments maintain our Sanctifying Grace and increases the amount we are capable of having.

Exactly. The Sacraments give grace by the very reception of them. Our devotion helps, but they work as long as we don't block them.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]I need to get back in communion with Christ

Good idea. Find a good priest and tell him you need to make a general confession and explain your situation. Try to schedule a time to come in and make that confession, and if he's a good priest he'll get you all sorted, and help you through the confession.

In the meantime, it's probably good to look for an examination of conscience from some traditional Catholic site (perhaps FE has one?), and make a list to help you. That will make confessing it all easy. For mortal sins, you need to be specific about what happened (but not graphic or tell the story), just the correct name. You also need to say how many times, or about how often for how long.

You tell the priest these things as God's ear. God known them, of course, but we are acknowledging them in front of God's minister. That confession is a kind of tribunal. You are your own prosecutor, you make no defense, the priest as God's representative judges you guilty, but then pardons you, assigning some penance to help you to start making up for the sins and to show gratitude for the pardon.

We put ourselves in front of the tribunal now, so that we are not judged on these later in that tribunal at our death.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]U know how they say they receive Christ through some kind of epiphany or enlightenment. We don't have to do that do we? Having to discern weather u had a "born again" moment or weather it was just a thought, dream, hallucination, imagination, evil deception, feeling etc. We receive Christ through the Eucharist right?

Christ is present to us in many ways. Some people have particular graces like what you describe, but that's more rare. Mostly these graces help us without us noticing them too much. But St Paul had to get beaten up by Christ to convert, so there's some decent precedent for at least the possible oddity.

We do receive Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, which is Christ's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, sacramentally and substantially present, but we can also receive Christ in other more spiritual ways. For instance, it is true to say that Christ is present to us when we read Scripture, or when we're in the Ste of Grace (since the whole Trinity dwells in our soul when in the State of Grace).

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]And finally to keep hold of Sanctifying grace we must keep God's Law through moral actions and living in conformity with Christ. For we will be judged according to what we have done, right. It's everywhere, Rev 20, James 2, Paul says it, Jesus says it and the RCC says it.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments ..."

Yep. We keep Sanctifying Grace by avoiding sin and doing good.

At our death we will be judged for the good and evil we have done, but, as St John of the Cross says, we will really be judged on Love, and how much we Loved God, but, "If you love Me ..."

When we do fail and sin, in confessing those sins, while they will still be part of our judgement later, they will no longer be a stain on our record because while they still happened, the guilt for them is remitted.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]This "faith alone" doctrine they have is so false. 

Totally false, because Luther made it up, and had to change Scripture to do so. He added "alone" after Faith in Roman 3.28.

The original says that we are justified by Faith apart from works of the (Mosaic) Law. The changed one says "Faith alone" apart from works of the Law, suggesting that good works do not count.

This is also why Luther wanted to throw out Romans and James along with 5 other New Testament books, but people objected, so he just modified some parts.

(02-27-2020, 03:37 AM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]Some believe "Once saved always saved" which just produces these self righteous millenials who create their own false morals.

Yep. Just Calvinists lying to themselves to try to feel better when they sin.

As the old adage goes : "Jews don't recognize Jesus; Protestants don't recognize the Pope; and Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store."
(02-26-2020, 11:35 PM)Porkncheese Wrote: [ -> ]Hi guys. I've been in a Christian forum and I've been observing the people on their talk about being born again
So firstly i would like some help to confirm the requirements needed to get saved as taught by the RCC. Just correct my errors here please.
And after we've confirmed it i would like to discuss what I read in this forum about the protestants different beliefs in born again

First we get baptized which for us is the same or similar to being born again. We basically receive the Holy Spirit.
Do we now have the gift of salvation or do we receive God's grace here?

As we grow up we have our first Holy Communion and Confirmation. 
Is this part of the works that is required to keep our salvation? Or do we get our salvation when we first receive Christ in Holy Communion?

Correct me if im wrong but at this point we already have God's grace and salvation
We must now walk in the steps of Christ to perform deeds/works which are required to keep our salvation

Have true faith from the heart and continue in communion with Christ.
Do our best to live our lives in the steps of Christ and repent/confess regularly

Is this correct? If not can you please show me where and what it should be?

Just a little warning to you, on a personal level.
Back around late 2006/early 2007, I felt I had a very powerful conversion to Our Lord.
However, despite being advised otherwise, in my pride I left the Catholic Church, and essentially became a Baptist for about 7 years.
I bought into the whole Protestant “Faith-alone” and everything else that goes with it.
It wasn’t until months before I was getting married that started to see the utter absurdity of the whole facade.

So, my advice: get off that forum.
If you tell them what any of has said they’re likely to tell you that we’ve all been blinded by a delusion or something.
Please just get away from whatever site that is, please. 
I’m trying to save you from a lot of wasted time, and none of us has much time here on this Earth, so please just do us a favour and distance yourself from those people.
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