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I have a question regarding the Church Visible.

If things continue to progress and the Church has to operate underground only, is it no longer visible?

When the Christians were in the Catacombs, was the Church no longer visible?

Or is it that because of the martyrs the Church is still visible even though the Mass is said in private only?
I don't think I've heard of the term "Church Visible?" If you mean the Church Militant, then yes, it is still visible in the sense that there is a living body of members that make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

As long as the Mass is still said, whether publicly or privately, the Church still stands.
The Church remains visible so long as it has bishops with jurisdiction.  Bishops using their authority to limit priests from saying Mass publicly(rightly or wrongly) emphasizes the visibility of the Church, not the other way around.  

The world, and even some members of the Church knowing(or not knowing) the physical location it legitimately celebrates its sacraments, or who its particular bishops are does not have an effect on the Visibility of the Church.  

Even when the Church was in the Catacombs it retained its visibility.  They fought over jurisdiction(limits, who was the rightful bishop, ect) fairly often in the early persecuted Church.  Following the rightful bishop(whether that be the pope or the local bishop) was of the utmost importance. 

The Visibility of the the Church is an essential Mark of The Church, without out it the Church would not be the Church.
(04-01-2020, 11:38 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I've heard of the term "Church Visible?" If you mean the Church Militant, then yes, it is still visible in the sense that there is a living body of members that make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

As long as the Mass is still said, whether publicly or privately, the Church still stands.

Church visible is a theological term to distinguish our belief that the church is a visible institution from the Protestant belief that it is fundamentally  invisible. These terms are somewhat misleading in contemporary English.
(04-02-2020, 01:44 PM)19405 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2020, 11:38 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I've heard of the term "Church Visible?" If you mean the Church Militant, then yes, it is still visible in the sense that there is a living body of members that make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

As long as the Mass is still said, whether publicly or privately, the Church still stands.

Church visible is a theological term to distinguish our belief that the church is a visible institution from the Protestant belief that it is fundamentally  invisible. These terms are somewhat misleading in contemporary English.

I would say they are more than "somewhat misleading.  "Church Visible" is a very obscure term.  I never encountered it until today
I sort of disagree.  I don't think bishops or jurisdiction are absolutely necessary even if that's the ideal.  Where does "jurisdiction" come from anyway?  It's a legalistic fiction.  

 The Church exists wherever there are faithful gathered together, or if you're alone then wherever you are if you keep Christ in your heart.  In the best case scenario you'll have a bishop with real faith,  a chapel of some kind,a priest and some faithful but many times throughout history that was not the case for people on the hinterlands or in times of mass apostasy and chaos. It's apparently not the case today in many modern towns or nations.  

 The best modern exponent of my views on ecclesiology are those of Dr. Matthew Raphael Johnson or Old Believers so take what I say with a grain of salt, as an eccentric.  Over the years I've come to believe this VERY strongly and intuitively.  

Wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them... I even look at the "two or three" as the invisible communion of saints or even the various birds and animals if you're the only person since everything in the world is in some way created and sustained and gathered through the Logos who is Christ.
(04-02-2020, 03:43 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-02-2020, 01:44 PM)19405 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2020, 11:38 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I've heard of the term "Church Visible?" If you mean the Church Militant, then yes, it is still visible in the sense that there is a living body of members that make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

As long as the Mass is still said, whether publicly or privately, the Church still stands.

Church visible is a theological term to distinguish our belief that the church is a visible institution from the Protestant belief that it is fundamentally  invisible. These terms are somewhat misleading in contemporary English.

I would say they are more than "somewhat misleading.  "Church Visible" is a very obscure term.  I never encountered it until today

If you don't associate in Protestant and Catholic apologetics talks, you probably wouldn't.
(04-02-2020, 04:36 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]I sort of disagree.  I don't think bishops or jurisdiction are absolutely necessary even if that's the ideal.  Where does "jurisdiction" come from anyway?  It's a legalistic fiction.  

 The Church exists wherever there are faithful gathered together, or if you're alone then wherever you are if you keep Christ in your heart.  In the best case scenario you'll have a bishop with real faith,  a chapel of some kind,a priest and some faithful but many times throughout history that was not the case for people on the hinterlands or in times of mass apostasy and chaos. It's apparently not the case today in many modern towns or nations.  

 The best modern exponent of my views on ecclesiology are those of Dr. Matthew Raphael Johnson or Old Believers so take what I say with a grain of salt, as an eccentric.  Over the years I've come to believe this VERY strongly and intuitively.  

Wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them... I even look at the "two or three" as the invisible communion of saints or even the various birds and animals if you're the only person since everything in the world is in some way created and sustained and gathered through the Logos who is Christ.

You're not wrong, but this is closer to how Protestants see it. Which ultimately means you don't need the magisterium. Which mean you have a Church without a head. An incomplete church. 
(04-02-2020, 03:43 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-02-2020, 01:44 PM)19405 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2020, 11:38 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I've heard of the term "Church Visible?" If you mean the Church Militant, then yes, it is still visible in the sense that there is a living body of members that make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

As long as the Mass is still said, whether publicly or privately, the Church still stands.

Church visible is a theological term to distinguish our belief that the church is a visible institution from the Protestant belief that it is fundamentally  invisible. These terms are somewhat misleading in contemporary English.

I would say they are more than "somewhat misleading.  "Church Visible" is a very obscure term.  I never encountered it until today

It's not that obscure. I think understanding the distinction is really key to getting the difference between Protestant ecclesiology and Catholic ecclesiology. I said they are a bit misleading because we post-moderns think of visibility in material terms.
(04-02-2020, 04:36 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: [ -> ]I sort of disagree.  I don't think bishops or jurisdiction are absolutely necessary even if that's the ideal.  Where does "jurisdiction" come from anyway?  It's a legalistic fiction.  

 The Church exists wherever there are faithful gathered together, or if you're alone then wherever you are if you keep Christ in your heart.  In the best case scenario you'll have a bishop with real faith,  a chapel of some kind,a priest and some faithful but many times throughout history that was not the case for people on the hinterlands or in times of mass apostasy and chaos. It's apparently not the case today in many modern towns or nations.  

 The best modern exponent of my views on ecclesiology are those of Dr. Matthew Raphael Johnson or Old Believers so take what I say with a grain of salt, as an eccentric.  Over the years I've come to believe this VERY strongly and intuitively.  

Wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them... I even look at the "two or three" as the invisible communion of saints or even the various birds and animals if you're the only person since everything in the world is in some way created and sustained and gathered through the Logos who is Christ.

This may or may not be a quibble, but I don't know in what sense you mean "legal fiction." In its normal sense as a legal term, a claim of jurisdiction would not be a legal fiction.
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