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A few thoughts came to mind when I was continuing Isaiah that I thought I would share.

Quote:Its harvest shall be destroyed with drought, women shall come and teach it: for it is not a wise people, therefore he that made it, shall not have mercy on it: and he that formed it, shall not spare it. - Isaiah 27:11.

This passage is interesting when considering the various Christian denominations that have developed since the Revolt. I am aware that its literal meaning refers to the downfall of the Jews upon their rejection of Christ, yet, there is also the spiritual meaning which can be applied to the various heretical sects that have arisen. The drought for the harvest is similar to the branch which is cut off from the vine that Our Lord speaks of. Without its connection to the True Vine, the branch withers and dies. So too does the harvest succumb to the drought when deprived of the life-giving waters of God. 

Further, women shall come and teach it, speaks to how low these sects have fallen in their detachment from the Church. If you look at all of the mainline sects that have broken off from the Church, every single one of them has allowed for either women's "ordination" or women as "pastors". Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelicals, the Old Catholic Church, etc. All have fallen to allow women to teach with an authority like that of the Apostles. While we have women religious who teach, with one a Doctor, they do not stand as those with Aposotolic authority in the Church like they do in these sects. It is only the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox churches which have maintained the paternal Apostolic authority.

For it is not a wise people, therefore he that made it, shall not have mercy on it: and he that formed it, shall not spare it. Almighty God, through His justice, allows these false teachers and heretical sects to succumb to their own errors and suffer the eternal punishments for their obstinacy. We see this with the consistent disagreements among sects, and even individual "Christians", which is God giving them over to their confusion and spiritual darkness.

I believe that we will see just where the Conciliar Church stands if they capitulate to women's ordination. If they do, then I fear it is safe to say that whoever the adherents are, definitively and publicly cease to be in the Church.
It is interesting to see how most schismatics and heretics abandon the ancient practices and beliefs of the Church.  Separate from Rome and the following usually happens: married clergy, a lowest common denominator approach to Christian orthodoxy, a subsequent watering down of teachings, women's ordination, official or quasi-official universalism, approval of abortion "rights" and same-sex marriage, etc.  The only exceptions, of course, are the Orthodox, who have some married clergy but none of these other problems.  It took centuries for the Protestant Revolt to reach this low point of near or even total apostasy, but I believe it was inevitable.
(08-04-2020, 04:24 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: [ -> ]It is interesting to see how most schismatics and heretics abandon the ancient practices and beliefs of the Church.  Separate from Rome and the following usually happens: married clergy, a lowest common denominator approach to Christian orthodoxy, a subsequent watering down of teachings, women's ordination, official or quasi-official universalism, approval of abortion "rights" and same-sex marriage, etc.  The only exceptions, of course, are the Orthodox, who have some married clergy but none of these other problems.  It took centuries for the Protestant Revolt to reach this low point of near or even total apostasy, but I believe it was inevitable.

And this phenomenon isn't contained within Christianity either. If you look to the secular sphere, most societies that move to women operating in a role of authority tend to be in decline and error. And this is not to slight our women, but is derived from a truth of the natural order as established through the Fall. God established men as the leaders of society, inside and outside of the Church. You see it in the traditional family structure, in the hierarchy of the Church, in the hierarchies of successful and functional governments; yet, today, with the complete rejection of the natural order, we are seeing the whole thing begin to collapse around us into insanity.

As for married priests; it's a separate subject entirely. The Catholic priesthood has developed over two millennia around the practice of celibate clergy, while the East (both Eastern Catholics and Orthodoxy), have adapted under the model of allowing married priests. I would say that while it works for the East, it is only due to the structure of their eccelsiology. Whereas, the introduction of such would be a huge misstep in the development of the West. Both have a presence in Scripture and the Early Church, whereas the role of women in clerical authority has been actively preached against by the likes of Scripture, in particular, St. Paul and the example above.
I taught religious education for 3 years, 5th and 6th graders at a NO parish. Girls typically outnumbered the boys in class, and the boys who were there by and large didn't want to be. I think I had one male student who expressed a genuine desire to learn about the faith. Since, aside from the priest, the altar is largely populated by females as servers, readers, EMHCs, cantors, etc., the boys have no desire to be up there, so trying to get any to volunteer as servers was never successful. Males are inclined toward battle, and spiritual warfare is a battle. But, the typical NO Mass experience is largely a woman's endeavor. They're most of the volunteers, they pick the songs, lead the RE programs, etc. It's all very soft. Nothing ever challenging, genuinely spiritually uplifting, etc.

All too often, the Church replies with "but the Eucharist is there!" I've even used this phrase myself, sadly. True, the Eucharist is present. But every other exterior part of the Mass is incongruous with what we teach about the Eucharist. Many people throw this phrase out as just some tagline or advertising slogan. "Forget about the bad music, who cares that the altar servers have green hair and the EMCHs are wearing boots with sequins and fathers, we have the Real Presence ™ ! ! !" Ok, so act like it.
(08-04-2020, 09:22 PM)LionHippo Wrote: [ -> ]I taught religious education for 3 years, 5th and 6th graders at a NO parish.  Girls typically outnumbered the boys in class, and the boys who were there by and large didn't want to be.  I think I had one male student who expressed a genuine desire to learn about the faith.  Since, aside from the priest, the altar is largely populated by females as servers, readers, EMHCs, cantors, etc., the boys have no desire to be up there, so trying to get any to volunteer as servers was never successful.  Males are inclined toward battle, and spiritual warfare is a battle.  But, the typical NO Mass experience is largely a woman's endeavor.  They're most of the volunteers, they pick the songs, lead the RE programs, etc.  It's all very soft.  Nothing ever challenging, genuinely spiritually uplifting, etc.

All too often, the Church replies with "but the Eucharist is there!"  I've even used this phrase myself, sadly.  True, the Eucharist is present.  But every other exterior part of the Mass is incongruous with what we teach about the Eucharist.  Many people throw this phrase out as just some tagline or advertising slogan.  "Forget about the bad music, who cares that the altar servers have green hair and the EMCHs are wearing boots with sequins and fathers, we have the Real Presence ™ ! ! !"  Ok, so act like it.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head, here.  The NO is so incredibly lackluster, it is no wonder many Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.  The entire NO Mass, at so many parishes at any rate, is from start to finish treated and celebrated as a wishy washy family/community meal.  Not the Sacrifice where Our Lord literally becomes present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.  Anyone who believes that God Himself is present on the altar would not behave as many NO Catholics AND their priests do at Mass.  I have heard that the feminizing of Christianity has been a big part of the decline in the Faith.  Men, in general, aren't interested in a soft faith that offers them mostly feel good platitudes about love and so forth.  It is so sad to see the majority of the Church's faithful succumb to this lackluster imitation of Catholicism, and fall away from the Faith.
(08-04-2020, 07:01 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]And this phenomenon isn't contained within Christianity either. If you look to the secular sphere, most societies that move to women operating in a role of authority tend to be in decline and error. And this is not to slight our women, but is derived from a truth of the natural order as established through the Fall. God established men as the leaders of society, inside and outside of the Church. You see it in the traditional family structure, in the hierarchy of the Church, in the hierarchies of successful and functional governments; yet, today, with the complete rejection of the natural order, we are seeing the whole thing begin to collapse around us into insanity.

 A worthwhile read, if you haven't seen it, yet: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.p...the-missus
(08-04-2020, 10:05 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-04-2020, 07:01 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [ -> ]And this phenomenon isn't contained within Christianity either. If you look to the secular sphere, most societies that move to women operating in a role of authority tend to be in decline and error. And this is not to slight our women, but is derived from a truth of the natural order as established through the Fall. God established men as the leaders of society, inside and outside of the Church. You see it in the traditional family structure, in the hierarchy of the Church, in the hierarchies of successful and functional governments; yet, today, with the complete rejection of the natural order, we are seeing the whole thing begin to collapse around us into insanity.

 A worthwhile read, if you haven't seen it, yet: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.p...the-missus
Brilliant article. Thank you for sharing that. It's true, with equality comes the demise of the person, i.e. the human soul, to make way for the faceless, grey "individual." It makes me think of the NPC meme that progressives seem to hate.
(08-04-2020, 09:39 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're hitting the nail on the head, here.  The NO is so incredibly lackluster, it is no wonder many Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence.  The entire NO Mass, at so many parishes at any rate, is from start to finish treated and celebrated as a wishy washy family/community meal.  Not the Sacrifice where Our Lord literally becomes present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.  Anyone who believes that God Himself is present on the altar would not behave as many NO Catholics AND their priests do at Mass.  I have heard that the feminizing of Christianity has been a big part of the decline in the Faith.  Men, in general, aren't interested in a soft faith that offers them mostly feel good platitudes about love and so forth.  It is so sad to see the majority of the Church's faithful succumb to this lackluster imitation of Catholicism, and fall away from the Faith.

I do not want to completely dismiss the "Novus Ordo" Mass because growing up, it's all I knew, and I encountered many good people and many good priests throughout the years.  But while I tried to embrace it more fully, the shortcomings of it just became more evident.

I know that many with a more solid background in the history and theology of liturgy can make a solid case for the Tridentine Mass being objectively more orthodox than the Ordinary Form.  However, to the vast majority of the Catholic population - the average person sitting in the pew - an academic study or abstract comparing the two would be above most people's knowledge and comfort level.  Just looking at the two liturgies side-by-side on paper, that is, I do not think that most people would be able to accurately compare the two.

To me, the problem is not in the Novus Ordo Mass in and of itself; as written, and as was intended to be prayed (as far as I can tell), if done reverently, it would be a spiritually uplifting liturgy.  The problem is the entire Novus Ordo / post-Vatican II mindset.  It's just a whole different culture, practice, attitude, and belief set of Catholicism that existed beforehand.  I know that everyone on here knows this. 

At (N.O.) Mass, it's the:  noise, often poor music, often bland architecture, often sparse placement of Catholic imagery, lack of discipline in dress, being forced to greet people before Mass, the sign of peace, the Our Father hand holding, female altar servers, disinterested altar servers in general (most with beat up, casual footwear showing), altar crowded with women at communion, unnecessary EMHCs, the occasional "children and teen Masses," homily jokes, modernist takes on scripture presented during the homily, often omitting the Confiteor for the Kyrie (not that the kyrie is insufficient in itself, but the average person probably sees himself commanding God to have mercy on him), homilies that never challenge, i.e. only focusing on the "be nice" aspects of the faith, "woke" virtue signaling (e.g. last year during the "migrant crisis" we started singing songs in Spanish out of the blue), liberal "prayers of the faithful" snuck in, applause after music / homilies / announcements, the occasional felt novelty vestments, Scripture reading options to omit passages like the "wives, be submissive to your husbands" in Ephesians 5 . . . and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

At the Parish / belief level, it's:  bulletin tracts that doubt the historicity of Scripture, R.E. programs relying on cartoon textbooks and the awful NAB, wholesale acceptance of evolution and other atheistic secular science, focus on the most faddish social justice issues of the day, half hour to 45 minutes of 'reconciliation' once a week at most parishes, donation requests for "Catholic" charity-type organizations known to act contrary to the Church's teachings, the great error of keeping the faith private and not interfering with the public sphere, etc.

After a while, when listing all of these things out, it just becomes evident that "something" went wrong in the last few decades.
(08-07-2020, 09:50 PM)LionHippo Wrote: [ -> ]I know that many with a more solid background in the history and theology of liturgy can make a solid case for the Tridentine Mass being objectively more orthodox than the Ordinary Form.  However, to the vast majority of the Catholic population - the average person sitting in the pew - an academic study or abstract comparing the two would be above most people's knowledge and comfort level.  Just looking at the two liturgies side-by-side on paper, that is, I do not think that most people would be able to accurately compare the two.

You don't think people could tell the difference between these?

Quote:Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the bread we offer you: fruit of the earth and work of human hands, it will become for us the bread of life.

Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation, for through your goodness we have received the wine we offer you: fruit of the vine and work of human hands, it will become our spiritual drink.

Quote:Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting.

We offer You, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, humbly begging of Your mercy that it may arise before Your divine Majesty, with a pleasing fragrance, for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen.
How about comparing the ancient Roman Canon with its centuries of organic development and its rich Sacrificial imagery with 'Eucharistic Prayer' II, so devoid of the idea of Sacrifice that it is acceptable to Calvinists and which was written on the table of a trattoria in Trastevere in a couple of hours by Fr Louis Bouyer? I've read that Bouyer said he would never use EP II. When asked why, he replied, 'Because I WROTE it!'

From Rorate Cæli:

Original Sins: Eucharistic Prayer II - composed in a few hours in a Roman Trattoria
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