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(04-01-2021, 12:48 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]That's the kind of cancerous talk that drove me out of traditional Catholicism to begin with.  The smug, holier than thou attitudes and the quickness which some leap, champing at the bit, to condemn others to Hell for all eternity because they don't meet their standard as a Catholic.  Be assured, your way of thinking is dying out, thanks be to God.  You are in the minority.  You can cling to the past if antiquinarianism brings you comfort.  But Rome no longer thinks as you do, and the entirety of the East do not think as you do.  In short, Catholicism no longer thinks as you do.

St. Joe, how much contact to trads to you have in real life? 

I know that this is an attitude you will find, but I have been trad for something like 4 or 5 years now, and I really haven't encountered this mentality to the degree that you seem to think it is present in the trad world (aside from in myself, but that is the confidence of youthful ignorance.)
SeekerofChrist Wrote:A messy situation, to be sure. Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic? Would she be enraged? She doesn't have to make the switch with you. Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction. If they do, I'd love to see a source for that. It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas. And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources. Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.

Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, along with the filioque, purgatory, and other Latin peculiarities, aren't officially, or even de facto, rejected (though there are a number of individuals who take it upon themselves to do so). But they aren't really highlighted or paid much attention to, either. They just don't play much of a role in Byzantine spirituality. Because of this, the Eastern Catholic indifference towards them can come across as implicit rejection.
(04-01-2021, 02:03 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
SeekerofChrist Wrote:A messy situation, to be sure.  Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic?  Would she be enraged?  She doesn't have to make the switch with you.  Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction.  If they do, I'd love to see a source for that.  It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas.  And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources.  Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.

Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, along with the filioque, purgatory, and other Latin peculiarities, aren't officially, or even de facto, rejected (though there are a number of individuals who take it upon themselves to do so).  But they aren't really highlighted or paid much attention to, either.  They just don't play much of a role in Byzantine spirituality.  Because of this, the Eastern Catholic indifference towards them can come across as implicit rejection.

I suspected that this was probably the case.  I did not think that the Eastern Catholics rejected these Catholic dogmas.  They're part of the Catholic Church, after all.  But our friend here seems convinced that they don't believe these things.  He even seems convinced that Rome has repudiated them.  I'd grant they've been watered-down in places like Rome but that's the extent of it.  Once more, the fruits of Vatican II have been confusion and error on even defined dogmas.  Such a pity.
(04-01-2021, 02:46 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2021, 02:03 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
SeekerofChrist Wrote:A messy situation, to be sure.  Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic?  Would she be enraged?  She doesn't have to make the switch with you.  Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction.  If they do, I'd love to see a source for that.  It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas.  And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources.  Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.

Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, along with the filioque, purgatory, and other Latin peculiarities, aren't officially, or even de facto, rejected (though there are a number of individuals who take it upon themselves to do so).  But they aren't really highlighted or paid much attention to, either.  They just don't play much of a role in Byzantine spirituality.  Because of this, the Eastern Catholic indifference towards them can come across as implicit rejection.

I suspected that this was probably the case.  I did not think that the Eastern Catholics rejected these Catholic dogmas.  They're part of the Catholic Church, after all.  But our friend here seems convinced that they don't believe these things.  He even seems convinced that Rome has repudiated them.  I'd grant they've been watered-down in places like Rome but that's the extent of it.  Once more, the fruits of Vatican II have been confusion and error on even defined dogmas.  Such a pity.

Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?
Meaningless. Great megachurch talking point, but theologically meaningless.
(04-01-2021, 04:11 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?

If you believe that, I have to ask in all seriousness, why you are on a Traditionalist forum where the vast majority of members believe that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster for the Church?
(04-01-2021, 04:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2021, 04:11 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?

If you believe that, I have to ask in all seriousness, why you are on a Traditionalist forum where the vast majority of members believe that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster for the Church?

Jovan there's nothing wrong with believing Vatican II was a disaster in it's design and/or implementation.  Some members on here go entirely too far in calling Vatican II and the Roman Church after Vatican II the "anti-church" as though their private interpretation of tradition is part of the remnant/faithful/true church.  It's patently absurd, but it's a prevailing point of view on traditional websites and forums.

As to the other user who asked why I'm here, with my difficulty in accepting the papal claims.  It's because I want to get the other side.  I am not fully convinced of Orthodoxy's attacks against the papacy and am also not fully convinced of Rome's papal claims.  I had only really known them at a nominal level.  I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.
(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2021, 04:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2021, 04:11 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?

If you believe that, I have to ask in all seriousness, why you are on a Traditionalist forum where the vast majority of members believe that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster for the Church?

Jovan there's nothing wrong with believing Vatican II was a disaster in it's design and/or implementation.  Some members on here go entirely too far in calling Vatican II and the Roman Church after Vatican II the "anti-church" as though their private interpretation of tradition is part of the remnant/faithful/true church.  It's patently absurd, but it's a prevailing point of view on traditional websites and forums.

As to the other user who asked why I'm here, with my difficulty in accepting the papal claims.  It's because I want to get the other side.  I am not fully convinced of Orthodoxy's attacks against the papacy and am also not fully convinced of Rome's papal claims.  I had only really known them at a nominal level.  I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.

What I'm getting from this is that you want to find people who will affirm you in your errors, rather than show you why you're in error in the first place. If that's the case, then you're in the wrong forum.
(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.

We've been making the case for it, using the Eastern Fathers, and quoting Conciliar and Papal statements, and for doing so, we get called 'toxic'?
(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]As to the other user who asked why I'm here, with my difficulty in accepting the papal claims.  It's because I want to get the other side.  I am not fully convinced of Orthodoxy's attacks against the papacy and am also not fully convinced of Rome's papal claims.  I had only really known them at a nominal level.

What is "Rome's papal claims"?

(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: [ -> ]I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.

Why do you think a non-Catholic would be able to judge the solidity of Catholics? Do we expect the deaf to judge singing competitions or dyslexics to judge spelling bees?
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