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(10-03-2021, 11:37 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: [ -> ]And no, Catholics dont become heretics if an Orthodox attends Catholic Mass, goes without saying. However a Catholic going to an Orthodox liturgy partcipates together with those who reject multiple dogmas. If you want the Byzantine rite, join our east Catholic brethren. But you simply cannot willingly participate in prayer together with people who reject the Faith, this is how Christians of the past have always understood it. Some Christians even used to reject someone from stepping one foot in their homes if they didnt have the Faith, even if they were family! We dont take our Faith nearly as seriously as Christians used to.

Out of curiosity, why do you keep referring to Eastern Catholics as "East Catholics"? You've done it too many times for it to not be intentional.
(10-04-2021, 12:44 PM)J Michael Wrote: [ -> ]To many Latin Catholics, it is, indeed the same thing.  I couldn't count how many times I've seen the terms used interchangeably by Latin Catholics.

I have as well.
(10-04-2021, 03:29 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ][quote='AlNg777' pid='1472112' dateline='1633326965']
[quote='jovan66102' pid='1472110' dateline='1633325667']

Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion.
He's not the first heretic Pope the Church has ever had
I thought you said he was the head of a non-Catholic Church; that means he is not the head of the true Catholic church, No?
(10-03-2021, 01:01 AM)AlNg777 Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-02-2021, 09:36 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm always amazed at people who invoke John Paul as some sort of standard of Catholic orthodoxy!
I thought that Pope St. John Paul II was a canonized Catholic Saint. Aren't all Catholic Saints in heaven and blessed by Almighty God ? Is it not Catholic teaching that once a person is canonized as a saint, he is worthy of universal veneration and further he is held up as worthy of our emulation?
Further, did not Pope Benedict also participate in the Divine Liturgy according to the rite of Saint John Chrysostom in the Patriarchal Church of Saint George in the Phanar, Istanbul on Thursday, 30 November 2006? I don't see the support for a claim that this was a sin.
https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-...turgy.html

Not exactly. Their life as a whole is held up for veneration, that does NOT mean they did not made mistakes. If what your saying is true, that a saint's full life is to be held up as something to emulate, then I have to reread 'confessions' by St. Augustine with new eyes. 

The only purely human saint whose whole life is worthy of emulation arguable would be Mary. Jesus of course as well, however as He was fully man and God, He is our creator. Of the created beings, that leaves Mary. Everyone else, to my knowledge, has sinned. Including such great saints as Tomas Aquinas, Pius X, Francis, Joan of Arc etc. We are to emulate the good in their lives, not their sins.
Popes can and do make mistakes. They can and do make them on a world stage. See the renaissance for some spicy mistakes of popes. 

The problem is holding them up almost as a deity in of themself, ie, venerating them at the point of saying they did not make any mistakes, all is good because they are sainted. Kissing the koran is wrong, as was allowing a pagan statue to be placed on the tabernacle. The reason why its wrong is because it is an acceptance of the teachings of that faith. Lets put this in a better context.

You are an early catholic, circa, say.. 200AD. You are told to go up and kiss before a crowd of people, a statue of zues as a sign of your openness to their faith. Is that ok?

What about kissing say the book of the dead, or say today, publicly kissing a spell book of witches? Just like the offering of incense to the demons, it is a sign of accepting the faith of another as worthy of belief and giving it credence. You dont go aroudn kissing a copy of the DnD players handbook, or Tolkeins Narnia series. You do kiss what is sacred, such as the bible. This is a violation of the first commandment, as it puts other gods equal to and before God. It is saying that this other faith, be it pagan, muslim, witchcraft, is true and good and has credence.

Joining together in joint worship with herertics, schismatics etc is a mistake for the same reasons above, just more so. The exception in my opinion as a lay man to this (and a rough one at that) is if it was a Catholic prayer service, where other faiths could join, but it was only prayer to the One True God. What JP2, Benedict, Francis have done, contrary to how Catholics have always been supposed to operate, is called on professed heretics, pagans, schismatics to join hands and prayer to THEIR gods, not to God. This is worse because it in a sense is making a mockery of God. It is saying that prayers to God are jsut as good as these prayers to demons, as we are all together praying as one.

For reference, ANY diety other then God is a demon. Thus, praying to an elephant man is praying to a demon. Praying to zues is praying to a demon. Praying to the great mother earth or great spirit, is praying to.... a demon.
(10-04-2021, 05:18 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: [ -> ]We are to emulate the good in their lives, not their sins.
True of course.
(10-04-2021, 12:39 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-02-2021, 09:18 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: [ -> ]Its not a sin for a Catholic to attend the liturgy of any eastern rite as long as it is celebrated by Catholics. I doubt anyone here contests this.

Its a sin to attend the liturgy of an eastern rite that is celebrated by non Catholics, as in those who reject Papal Primacy or any dogmas of the Church. It has nothing to do with the liturgy itself, its about celebration with heretics.

JPII celebrating with heretics is obviously a problem, but its also not surprising for someone who kissed a koran. Id also love to hear of a single occasion in almost two millennia before 1960s of a saint who worshipped alongside professed heretics.

No Orthodox reject papal primacy.  They DO reject papal supremacy, though, which is not the same thing.
What I had in mind was Infallibility, definitely should have said that instead. But as you mentioned, this is something they reject, which is dogma of the Church. My point stands
(10-04-2021, 01:43 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-03-2021, 11:37 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: [ -> ]And no, Catholics dont become heretics if an Orthodox attends Catholic Mass, goes without saying. However a Catholic going to an Orthodox liturgy partcipates together with those who reject multiple dogmas. If you want the Byzantine rite, join our east Catholic brethren. But you simply cannot willingly participate in prayer together with people who reject the Faith, this is how Christians of the past have always understood it. Some Christians even used to reject someone from stepping one foot in their homes if they didnt have the Faith, even if they were family! We dont take our Faith nearly as seriously as Christians used to.

Out of curiosity, why do you keep referring to Eastern Catholics as "East Catholics"?  You've done it too many times for it to not be intentional.
If there is something incorrect about shortening eastern to east when referring to Catholics of eastern rites, Im not aware of it
(10-04-2021, 08:16 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: [ -> ]If there is something incorrect about shortening eastern to east when referring to Catholics of eastern rites, Im not aware of it
Well, I've been an Eastern Catholic for over 40 years and I have literally never heard our Churches referred to as 'East Catholics', just as I've never heard the Latin Rite referred to as 'West Catholics'. I don't know that it's 'incorrect', but it sure sounds weird!
(10-04-2021, 09:27 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-04-2021, 08:16 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: [ -> ]If there is something incorrect about shortening eastern to east when referring to Catholics of eastern rites, Im not aware of it
Well, I've been an Eastern Catholic for over 40 years and I have literally never heard our Churches referred to as 'East Catholics', just as I've never heard the Latin Rite referred to as 'West Catholics'. I don't know that it's incorrect', but it sure sounds weird!
Ok well my apologies, latin Catholic to west Catholic does sound weird but it didnt occur to me at the time that east instead of eastern would carry that same weirdness to the eastern ear. Ill stick with eastern going forward
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