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Like a Fish Out of Water...... - Antonius - 11-19-2008

Laudetur Iesus Christus!

I am a young, neophye Catholic who believes firmly in Vatican II. I was invited to these forums by a friend, but based on some of the posts, I think I may be a fish out of water, LOL. [Image: biggrin.gif]

So, most of the quirks can be seen in my profile and the rest is here.

I am a revert to the Faith, I was fully Initiated on April 22nd, 2008. I once considered myself a "Traditionalist" but after studying the history of the Church, Liturgy, Theology, I came to the conclusion that Vatican II represented a renewal with Holy Tradition and that if I wanted to be a truly "Traditionalist" Catholic, I would have to accept the teachings of the Ecumenical Council of the 20th century and the Popes and bishops over me.
There was a time in my Catholic formation (though a baptized Catholic, I went through RCIA) when I felt that the Second Vatican Council was a major doubt in my mind concerning the Church.

I looked at the "fruits" of the Second Vatican Council and I saw:

1. Horrible and abused Masses.
2. De-Sacralization in the Church
3. Rank Heresy in the Church

........and the general feeling that the "new" post-conciliar Church had "changed" or in some cases, gone against Catholic Tradition.


<I>BUT</I>, I started to further study the History of the Church and I found what I briefly introduce here.

I learned quickly that many of the Great Ecumenical Councils of the Church cause seemingly "bad" fruits at first, some more than others.

History shows that it takes <I>at least</I> one full generation before the renewal by conciliar decrees to take place (some take much longer). Further this renewal must be understood by the faithful and the clergy and must be implemented <I>in accordance of the dictates of St. Peter's See in Rome</I>. The longer large numbers of Catholic defy the Council or doubt it or try to "get around it" the longer it takes for the Renewal to take place. In a sense the Holy Spirit is "resisted."

Since my discoveries (thanks be to God) I believe firmly in the Second Vatican Council and it the mandates it made theologically, liturgically, and pastorally. While I once saw myself as a "traditionalist" I now see that to truly be faithful to Jesus Christ is to <I>sentire cum ecclesia</I> (think with the Church). The key to finding true renewal is to abide by the <B><I>official</I></B> (!!!) decrees of the Council and <B>how these are interpreted by the Magisterium.</B> Further, we must defiantly oppose those who "do-as-they-please" with the Liturgy or teach theology against the Church, even when they invoke the mythical "spirit of Vatican II" to support their novelties.

I contend (don't we all when it comes to personal opinion) that my entire view is based firmly on the Holy Fathers, Scripture, and the <B><I>authentic</I></B> Tradition of the Catholic Church....I find great comfort in the words of St. Francis De Sales, who I now quote (emphasis mine):

Quote:
<EM>"At general councils there are many lively debates and a profound search for the truth through reasoning, theological argument and council interventions; <B>however, once a subject has been debated, it is up to the Council Fathers...to determine the mind of the Council</B><B>.</B> Once their determination has been made, <B>everyone </B>should then aquiesce in it and accept it, NOT because of the arguments that were advanced in favor of the final determination, or the research which proceeded it, <B>but rather because of the authority of the Holy Spirit</B>.</EM>

<EM>Invisibly <B>presiding</B> at general councils, the Holy Spirit it is Who really judges and determines by means of the mouths of those of his servants who have been established by him as the pastors of Christendom.

<I><I>All the reasoning, theological argument and council interventions are made, as it were, in front of the Church; while the actual decisions and determinations of of the council fathers are made in the sanctuary, <B>where the Holy Spirit DOES speak through the mouths of the visible heads of the local Churches, <FONT color=darkred>just as Jesus Christ promised."</FONT></B></I></I>

<B><FONT color=#8b0000></FONT></B>
 
-St. Francis De Sales, Treatise of the Love of God
</EM>



As I said I am strongly against liberals in the Church who defy the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar Popes. I am a supporter of the now famous "Reform of the Reform."

I believe the Ordinary Form of the Mass is a true <B>restoration</B> of the liturgy of the Roman rite and perfectly orthodox in both practice and theology. I believe the Ordinary Form as it is celebrated in Rome must be the way it is celebrated in all Catholic parishes of the Roman Patriarchate.

I believe the key to surviving the post-conciliar turmoil rests in four "steps"

1. Keep the Faith
2. Follow the Pope
3. Learn what the Council really said
4. Do/Implement it

I believe firmly that Vatican II was a great gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. And while renewal as envisioned by the Holy Fathers of the Council has yet to happen, I believe firmly that a day is coming (and soon) when the entire Church, East and West, will be renewed in accordance with the holy decrees of the 21st Ecumenical Synod of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Until that time I patiently await on the Lord, and seek in my life to holdfast to the Church of Christ and doing all I can to help implement in my own life and parish the renewal called for by Vatican II.

I could say quite a bit more, but I am unable to at the moment. I am sure as I post here many will get to know me better....and I fear I will have more intellectual adversaries than allies here. ;)

See you on the forums (and for those who traverse places like CARM, yes it is I: Knightwolf. :))






Like a Fish Out of Water...... - WhollyRoaminCatholic - 11-19-2008

Hi Antonius.  If you play fair and don't pick unnecessary fights, you'll probably get along swimmingly with most of us.  Welcome and good luck!



Like a Fish Out of Water...... - Historian - 11-19-2008

Word of advice. Do not pay attention to devotedknuckles. He's illogical, impulsive, fool.





Like a Fish Out of Water...... - Antonius - 11-19-2008

Thank you for the welcome my brother.

I am not one to "pick fights" and I am always willing to listen to those who disagree with me.

And if I do feel as though I must respond, I always strive to do so with charity.

Part of this is the fact that I have spent about a year or so debating with Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (I used to be a fundamentalist anti-catholic myself...), so I have learned when to hold my tongue and that "truth" spoken in love is how all who belong to Christ must speak.




Like a Fish Out of Water...... - jovan66102 - 11-19-2008

Hotspur Wrote:Word of advice. Do not pay attention to devotedknuckles. He's illogical, impulsive, fool.
 
Gospel acc. to St Matthew, 5:22, D-R Wrote:<DIV>But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. <FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ff0000">And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.</FONT>
</DIV>


Like a Fish Out of Water...... - devotedknuckles - 11-19-2008

welcome to the fishtank. uh um i guess you  best not pay attention to me though. eheh
sips sip





Like a Fish Out of Water...... - SCG - 11-19-2008

<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
Antonius Wrote:As I said I am strongly against liberals in the Church who defy the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar Popes. I am a supporter of the now famous "Reform of the Reform."
</FONT>
<FONT face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Me too, but I try to keep my enthusiasm "toned down" lol

Anywho, welcome!  :)

- Lisa</FONT>



Like a Fish Out of Water...... - McMaster - 11-20-2008

Antonius Wrote:I am a young, neophye Catholic who believes firmly in Vatican II. [ . . . ] I think I may be a fish out of water [ . . . ]
Some may think so, but don't let them get your goat.

Quote:I came to the conclusion that Vatican II represented a renewal with Holy Tradition and that if I wanted to be a truly "Traditionalist" Catholic, I would have to accept the teachings of the Ecumenical Council of the 20th century and the Popes and bishops over me.
Me too. In fact, I came to that conclusion when I was being instructed in the Catholic faith, with Fr. John Hardon's <i>Catholic Catechism,</i> before I was baptized in 1980. The same conclusion was reinforced by the priests of the <a target="_blank" href="http://fssp.com/main/index.htm"><b>Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter</b></a>. Welcome aboard!

Blessings,

Don McMaster




Like a Fish Out of Water...... - Historian - 11-20-2008

Antonius Wrote:1. Keep the Faith
2. Follow the Pope
3. Learn what the Council really said
4. Do/Implement it

Steps 1 and 2, [Image: thumb.gif].

Steps 3-4, aye, there's the rub.

Welcome to the fishtank, young Antonius. I, Seadog, have been swimming in these waters longer than my profile might suggest. I am much conflicted over the Council, and look forward to hearing what you have to say. You may consider me a friendly adversary.

Enjoy the water, and good luck!



Like a Fish Out of Water...... - WhollyRoaminCatholic - 11-20-2008

Seadog Wrote:
Antonius Wrote:1. Keep the Faith
2. Follow the Pope
3. Learn what the Council really said
4. Do/Implement it

Steps 1 and 2, [Image: thumb.gif].

Steps 3-4, aye, there's the rub.

Agreed!  Before I found tradition, I would have written the same list above.  What I was surprised to discover is that there were councils before the Second Vatican Council that said some important stuff too.

In the contemporary Church's echo chamber, it's easy to think that Catholicism was invented in the 60's.