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Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
moneil Wrote:So, at the time of Christ, men and women wore the same identical style of clothing - a robe,

Wrong. Look at Tele's pictures. There were distinguishable.

They were as similiar as the various styles of trousers that exist now. They were the same concept of clothing. Trousers for women are not the "same" as trousers for me, but they are the same article of clothing.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - INPEFESS - 02-06-2009

Quote:Rafael and INP, great insights. You're 100% right.

Thank you. It's just morality, really.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - Telemaque - 02-06-2009

Quote:So this is now just about church and formal occasions? I didn't know this was the setting.

So do you agree in that setting it's irrelevant to talk about whether or not skirts and dresses are "restrictive"?


Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
Telemaque Wrote:It is obvious it's his personal struggle that doesn't mean women who wear form fitting pants aren't contributing to it, inadvertantly or not. Give me a break.

Indeed.

New adjectives are being introduced. This was not about form fitting trousers, but trousers in general in the beginning.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - SaintRafael - 02-06-2009

moneil Wrote:So, at the time of Christ, men and women wore the same identical style of clothing - a robe, the same kind of well stated example LaRoza offered about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.   The woman in those times is usually dipicted wearing a type of a veil (though, one will see illustrations of men also wearing a "veil type" head covering in that era - there are some in my St. Joseph's Daily Missal [1951 edition, not the "modernist" 1962 Missal [Image: wink.gif]]).  It would seem to me, then, that it is a tradition from Apstolic times that there does not necessarily have to be a defined, distinct, seperate style of cloting for each of the genders.

It is true, of course, that distictive styles developed, emerged, evolved, across the ages.  I would venture to guess that those developments were influenced more so by environment, the nature of one's work, and ever changing cultural norms, than by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but that's just my opnion.

While men and women wore robes during the time of Christ, that doesn't mean there weren't differences and that they were not distinguishable.
People at that time knew the difference between male and female robes. there were differences in size, texture, color, and style.

The development in clothes was not due to just secular forces. Clothes were dictated by Catholic morals. You forget that there was something called Western Christendom where the Catholic religion and Christianity was the culture. Every aspect of human life was guided by Catholic morals.

It is hard ti imagine in our secular, pagan, and apostate culture, how much religion was part of everyday life in the public square and in every aspect of human culture. 



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:So do you agree in that setting it's irrelevant to talk about whether or not skirts and dresses are "restrictive"?

I would agree that it is not our place to be hung up on this detail. I would say people should dress modestly, which is partially defined by the society. So for those settings I would say a person should dress in modest clothing appropriate for the people there. Now, for some, a woman in trousers is unacceptable and for a society of such people, a woman should not wear trousers to those events with those people. However, not everyone shares such opinions.

If the society is like StevusMagnus, then obviously people will look like this:

[Image: SMITHCLONES!.jpg]

However, not all social groups are like that.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

SaintRafael Wrote:While men and women wore robes during the time of Christ, that doesn't mean there weren't differences and that they were not distinguishable.
People at that time knew the difference between male and female robes. there were differences in size, texture, color, and style.
Just like male and female trousers?




Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

INPEFESS Wrote:
Quote:Rafael and INP, great insights. You're 100% right.

Thank you. It's just morality, really.

Yes. Some are simply blind primarily because they are trying to justify whatever they are wearing out of convenience and apathetic to the larger picture.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - moneil - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
The_Harlequin_King Wrote:If it was some person in a pew with a camcorder, that would be a random video, and I'd agree with you. This one, however, was made by a group of professional videographers for a video which the SSPX uses to promote the Latin Mass. I'm not going to say it's "official", but it's close to that. It's basically like a promotional pamphlet
So in other words your proof of this contention comes from one random video on the internet? Answer, yes.

Quote:
Quote:And you of course have extensive evidence for this claim. Surely it is not an irresponsible libelous assertion with no basis in fact.

If you read the statement, it may or may not be factual. I said, "who seem to be", which is different from "who are". But I have been to chapels with congregations who <I>seem </I>almost as unaware of the Mass as the average NOM parish.

Who seem to be based on what evidence? How do you know that people in SSPX Chapels are unaware of the Mass. How does one "seem" unaware of the Mass? And how can you say this speculative assertion applies to a majority of US Chapels but does not seem to apply in Europe?

Wreckless and rash presumption applied to mass generalization, denigrating all US SSPX chapelgoers based on a handful of specious speculative evidence.


Stevus, with all due respect, I believe you are being unfair in you attack on HK's posting a video (a professional produced one we are told, whose purpose is to promote the SSPX chapels) to demonstrate that perhaps the "dress code" some here feel so strongly about, may no be as rigidly observed in all places.

You youself have posted many videos dipicting the sacred liturgy being celebrated in a manner you feel is unworthy, or even sacriligioius.  I confess that I hardly ever watch those videos: 1 - they give my computer serious indigestion (it's the hardware, not the connection, but I'm hoping to put off getting a new one for a few months), and 2 - Why would I want to watch such a thing, if it's as bad as you say?  I suppose some enjoy watching that kind of thing, and on occassion, to bring to our attention such problems in the church is a valid purpose on this forum.  But, here it the rub (and it's just one example of many I think could be found), in this post you say:
Quote:
Don't you dare tell me this is a strawman. Except for the screen, this IS the NO in a majority of American parishes! Sure the music may be a little more folksy and less Pop, but this is what you get. People dress the same, the lectors and priests act the same.

It's an abomination. Take a look at the numerous parishes where <FONT color=#ff0000>Life</FONT>-<FONT color=#ff0000>Teen</FONT> operates. <FONT color=#ff0000>Life</FONT>-<FONT color=#ff0000>Teen</FONT> is just as bad if not worse than what you just saw. <FONT color=#ff0000>Life</FONT>-<FONT color=#ff0000>Teen</FONT> is all over the country! It can't enter a diocese without the bishop's approval.

Show me ONE BISHOP who has forbidden <FONT color=#ff0000>Life</FONT>-<FONT color=#ff0000>Teen</FONT> in his diocese or reprimanded <FONT color=#ff0000>Life</FONT>-<FONT color=#ff0000>Teen</FONT> for their liturgy. Name ONE!

Now, since the new Missal was promlagated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, I have exclusively attened Mass in the Ordinary Form, with 2 exceptions.  Durning that time of almost 40 years, I have never seen or heard of a Life Teen Mass, I have never seen or heard of a "clown Mass", or many of the other "atrocities" mentioned here (and I do concur that the state of liturgical life in American parishes isn't good and needs to be delt with.)  During this period I lived (for periods of 2 months up to several years) in the Archdioces of Bogota (Columbia, South America), Diocese of Spokane, Archdiocese of Seattle, Archdiocese of Kampala (Uganda, East Africa), and the Diocese of Boise, so, it's not like I've been living in a vacume.

So, I would say that accusing HK of
Quote:Wreckless and rash presumption applied to mass generalization, denigrating all US SSPX chapelgoers based on a handful of specious speculative evidence.
is a little unfair.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - moneil - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
moneil Wrote:So, at the time of Christ, men and women wore the same identical style of clothing - a robe,

Wrong. Look at Tele's pictures. There were distinguishable.


Look at the picture of the Holy Family I posted.  They aren't distinguishable.