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Men's Dress Worn By Women - Telemaque - 02-06-2009

LaRoza Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:That is my whole point, modestly goes beyond the actual article of clothing. The only thing really "female" is a veil.

Whoa! Who are YOU to say that? Clothing has no inherent gender. A veil is only feminine because society dictates it.

That is a Church Tradition, not some relic from an earlier time which I adhere to because I happened to grow up with it.

Isn't it interesting that most of the Church no longer follows it? Why do you think that is? Don't you think it might have to do with the trend of "unisex" dress? Women in pants and close-cropped hair? Women wearing whatever they want, not letting anyone tell them what to wear? Don't you think the fact it isn't followed has to do with feminism?


Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:The loosening of the norms might be a result of the world wars, not dresses on women.
I think I was referring to the hair styles of men, which were dominate in the 50's because of the world wars. Before them, long hair and facial hair were quite normal.

Quote:And another thing - I think using relativism is a totally inappropriate argument, because the reason fashions have sunk to the level they have is because society has become less Christian.
It is also relative in the Catholic Church. The styles have changed drastically from the time's of St. Paul to the times of Pope Pius X. Styles were always dictated by culture, not the Church. The Church adopted the styles which were modest.

Quote:There is nothing extreme about someone dressing according to the general norms of recent past times.
No, there isn't, but there is nothing extreme with not dressing according to such times.

Quote:There is nothing eccentric in wearing a dress.
No, there isn't.

Quote:People tried to dress respectably for a very long time and they should continue to do so today. The fact that "times has changed" is an inadmissible argument on this question. We're not talking about hoop skirts and corsets after all. We're talking about basic fundamentals that were in force for a very long time until there was a sudden collapse of discipline. Now it doesn't suprise me there are so many people infected with the spirit that led to that collapse. It does surprise me to find so many here who take such umbrage at those who point it out.
You are surprised that people find it objectionable to force styles of an arbitrary time period on modern people? There were inappropriate styles for all times. Today is not unique.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:We're talking about basic fundamentals that were in force for a very long time until there was a sudden collapse of discipline. Now it doesn't suprise me there are so many people infected with the spirit that led to that collapse. It does surprise me to find so many here who take such umbrage at those who point it out.

Tele, welcome to the club. They have a lot of things right, but are simply blinded as to the clothing issue, which should come naturally. It's evidence of how the revolution has seeped in with some people to the point they are blinded to what was once obvious.

Their arguments are all the same, basically consisting of retreating to odd exceptions from different times and cultures, a relativistic mindset,  a complete ignorance of the fruits of the cultural revolution the West just went through, and a blindness to the diabolical psychological effects behind the wearing of androgynous clothes. The liberals have brainwashed and neutered them on this front. It's up to the rest of us to resist the blurring of gender lines as well as the indecent fashions.

They are indeed relativistic in that their particular preference is always "ok". But if they wanted to be consistent the men would wear a dress and women would shave their head because society "shouldn't dictate what's masculine or feminine" and no clothes are inherently appropriate for a gender. Their philosophy is just an extension of moral relativism and private judgment applied to clothing, really.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:Isn't it interesting that most of the Church no longer follows it? Why do you think that is? Don't you think it might have to do with the trend of "unisex" dress? Women in pants and close-cropped hair? Women wearing whatever they want, not letting anyone tell them what to wear? Don't you think the fact it isn't followed has to do with feminism?

I think it has to do with the Church giving the illusion it didn't matter by neglecting to speak of the matter as much as it did in the past.

Look at the home page for any traditional parish or church and it will almost always say what is appropriate to wear. Many NO churches omit such things, giving the impression it doesn't matter. I don't think it has to do with feminism, as there were immodest styles and trends all throughout history but the Church emphasised modest for all during those times. It doesn't matter which church it is, or what time period, if the church leaders in that area neglect to fulfill their pastoral duty to teach modesty, people will stray.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

LaRoza Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:That is my whole point, modestly goes beyond the actual article of clothing. The only thing really "female" is a veil.

Whoa! Who are YOU to say that? Clothing has no inherent gender. A veil is only feminine because society dictates it.

That is a Church Tradition, not some relic from an earlier time which I adhere to because I happened to grow up with it.

Ahh, so you get to pick and choose the exceptions to your rules. Ok.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

PaxVobiscum Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
PaxVobiscum Wrote:Gotta tell you, Steve, women were wearing pants to Mass as early as 1964, when, as you surely know, all Masses were still in Latin and ad orientem. That was also before the women's movement began. Women and men were also wearing shorts to Mass in summer. Oh, the scandal!

Edit: But all the women and girls covered their heads, whatever they were wearing.

I suppose Modernism came early to your town. Either that or you have a clever imagination.

I do have a clever imagination, thank you very much, but I'm telling the truth about what I saw at Mass in 1964. Not many people here can remember 1964 so I thought you'd appreciate some history.

Thanks for the odd exception that proves the rule. Your parish was ripe for the Novus Ordo.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
LaRoza Wrote:That is my whole point, modestly goes beyond the actual article of clothing. The only thing really "female" is a veil.

Whoa! Who are YOU to say that? Clothing has no inherent gender. A veil is only feminine because society dictates it.

That is a Church Tradition, not some relic from an earlier time which I adhere to because I happened to grow up with it.

Isn't it interesting that most of the Church no longer follows it? Why do you think that is? Don't you think it might have to do with the trend of "unisex" dress? Women in pants and close-cropped hair? Women wearing whatever they want, not letting anyone tell them what to wear? Don't you think the fact it isn't followed has to do with feminism?

Tele, excellent points.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

Why is the loaded question suddenly so popular among the 'hard-liners'?



Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

LaRoza Wrote:I think it has to do with the Church giving the illusion it didn't matter by neglecting to speak of the matter as much as it did in the past.

Look at the home page for any traditional parish or church and it will almost always say what is appropriate to wear. Many NO churches omit such things, giving the impression it doesn't matter. I don't think it has to do with feminism, as there were immodest styles and trends all throughout history but the Church emphasised modest for all during those times. It doesn't matter which church it is, or what time period, if the church leaders in that area neglect to fulfill their pastoral duty to teach modesty, people will stray.

You simply avoided the question. Why were pastors silent on the matter and why did women stop wearing them when the law was never repealed?



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Telemaque - 02-06-2009

LaRoza Wrote:I think I was referring to the hair styles of men, which were dominate in the 50's because of the world wars. Before them, long hair and facial hair were quite normal.

You mean you were talking about something off-topic.

Quote:It is also relative in the Catholic Church. The styles have changed drastically from the time's of St. Paul to the times of Pope Pius X. Styles were always dictated by culture, not the Church. The Church adopted the styles which were modest.

Also relative in the Church because the Church is in crisis - you are failing to acknowledge my argument.

As for the idea that the Church had nothing to do with the way people dressed? That is utter nonsense. A reason so many people dress so badly today is because they no longer have a sense of how a Christian should dress. The idea of Sunday best is something they don't care about. They'll dress up for other things though. Just don't tell the women to wear dresses at Church.

Quote:No, there isn't, but there is nothing extreme with not dressing according to such times.

Yes there is today. There is an extreme lack of respect and decorum. It may not be "extreme" in the sense of being apart from the mainstream but it is extreme in the lack of respect that is shown.

Quote:No, there isn't.

Well, some people accuse the standards of being set by mentality of "re-enactment" interest in period costume, etc, it's nothing of the kind. The dress is just traditional Sunday best, end of story.

Quote:You are surprised that people find it objectionable to force styles of an arbitrary time period on modern people? There were inappropriate styles for all times. Today is not unique.

It isn't arbitrary. It's certainly not arbitrary in any number of situations. There are functions where women are required to wear dresses that are not liturgical. Today is very unique in the way people refuse to conform. You must be kidding around. Really.