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Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

LaRoza,

Let me know when you're going to wear a dress and practice what you preach.




Men's Dress Worn By Women - StevusMagnus - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:You must be kidding around. Really.

Exactly. I think they all must be kidding, or else the Church is in trouble.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:Tele, welcome to the club. They have a lot of things right, but are simply blinded as to the clothing issue, which should come naturally. It's evidence of how the revolution has seeped in with some people to the point they are blinded to what was once obvious.
That is an argumentum ad hominem. YOu are assuming intent and saying we are blind to what is obvious. Yes, it is obvious to you, but do you not see that I see your point of view and disagree with it because I have another which you do not understand? People are quick to say I'm influenced by feminists and modernists or whatever, when I'm not. I fully support modesty for all people, but I'm not so blind by human custom to say that any particular style is appropriate for all time. If I were speaking of people in the past, such as the 20's, and someone said a women in the Church was wearing trousers without good reason, I would be just like you, I'd say that was most likely very inappropriate because at that time, women did not wear such clothing.

Quote:Their arguments are all the same, basically consisting of retreating to odd exceptions from different times and cultures, a relativistic mindset,  a complete ignorance of the fruits of the cultural revolution the West just went through, and a blindness to the diabolical psychological effects behind the wearing of androgynous clothes. The liberals have brainwashed and neutered them on this front.
No, your arguments are all the same. It is because you say so, and that is how you grew up. Any attempt to show the big picture, that styles have changed widely in the past, is meet with the attack "We do not live then", while ignoring the fact if styles changed in the past, they can continue to change.

Quote:It's up to the rest of us to resist the blurring of gender lines as well as the indecent fashions.
I am against blurring of genders and indecent fashions as much as anyone, I'm just not rigid in saying what style of clothing is appropriate.

In the civil war period, men did not shave their facial hair, that only because widespread in WWI wear gas attacks were common. Throughout Church history, various people in the Church have pointed out shaving is effeminate. Why isn't it? For what purpose do you shave? You can tell me you know. Why is it you take a razor and run it over your skin? Is it for a specific purpose besides you were brought up that way? Why is it that you do not see it as effeminate besides that it is now culturally acceptable for men to have faces like women?

Quote:They are indeed relativistic in that their particular preference is always "ok". But if they wanted to be consistent the men would wear a dress and women would shave their head because society "shouldn't dictate what's masculine or feminine" and no clothes are inherently appropriate for a gender. Their philosophy is just an extension of moral relativism and private judgment applied to clothing, really.

You presume too much.

Answer the shaving question. You'll see it is because you are relativistic and it is a fully human custom born of an actual purpose but carried on because of a human habit.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:LaRoza,

Let me know when you're going to wear a dress and practice what you preach.

What is the matter with you?

I already stated that men wearing dresses in this culture is not for men and therefore I don't do it.

That is not what I preach. I did state if I happened to be in an area where men did not wear trousers, I would not wear them. I do not live in such an area.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

Telemaque Wrote:You mean you were talking about something off-topic.
I was addressing something brought up by Stevus.

If you want totally on-topic threads, do not go on the internet ;)

Quote:Also relative in the Church because the Church is in crisis - you are failing to acknowledge my argument.
If you must know, if people in the Church I came to asked me to draw up a dress code for the Church, I would make it as follows:

Men and Women:
* No shorts
* No bare shoulders, and sleeves should reach the wrists unless it is extremely hot
* No bare chests or backs
* Hair should be in a simple style
* No distracting colours or patterns
* No tight clothing
* No unneccessarily worn or torn clothing

Men:
* Wear clothes you would wear to a job interview, you are before God
* Hair should not be cut into distracting patterns or styles (no spikes, mohawks, etc) regarless of length
* Heads should not be covered

Women:
* Skirts or similiar clothing should be worn for the lower body, and lose and undistracting clothing should be worn (naturally, due to modern styles in skirts and trousers, I'm heavily for skirts, but I am not rigid in this because there are modest styles of trousers)
* Veil or hat covering the head and most of the hair (at least, in principle)

Quote:As for the idea that the Church had nothing to do with the way people dressed? That is utter nonsense. A reason so many people dress so badly today is because they no longer have a sense of how a Christian should dress.
The Church never innovated a style of dress, except perhaps for some religious groups. All styles are from secular styles, but only modest variations and styles are used.

Quote: The idea of Sunday best is something they don't care about. They'll dress up for other things though. Just don't tell the women to wear dresses at Church.
Dressing with appropriate and modest clothes for Church (and all occasions) I'm all for.

Quote:It isn't arbitrary. It's certainly not arbitrary in any number of situations. There are functions where women are required to wear dresses that are not liturgical. Today is very unique in the way people refuse to conform. You must be kidding around. Really.

I think you mistake my position on certain matters.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - The_Harlequin_King - 02-06-2009

moneil Wrote:Would you be so kind as to point out the difference between a "dress" and a "robe" in this picture?  Obviously, the woman is wearing a veil, but otherwise, the difference is?

[Image: HolyFamily-1.jpg][url=http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq305/Mike73Coug/HolyFamily-1.jpg][/url]

To be fair to Telemaque's side, there is indeed a difference, but it's really subtle and most 21st century Americans wouldn't notice. St. Joseph is wearing what's basically a Roman toga, a large piece of fabric that's draped over one shoulder. The only women who wore togas in Roman times were prostitutes.

Mary is wearing something that vaguely corresponds to the Roman stola and palla, hanging off both of her arms. Vaguely.

Our Lord Christ is wearing a tunic which, admittedly, is quite androgynous. Ancients weren't too concerned with male/female distinctions among small children, although a Roman boy's tunic would be decided more masculine than what the holy card has.

That being said, the historical Holy Family wouldn't have worn Roman garb because they weren't citizens and thus not even allowed to wear it. Not that they would have wanted to, anyway.

A more recent example of more androgynous tunics on boys, by the way...

<a target="_blank" href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Francesco_Hayez_044.jpg">[Image: 447px-Francesco_Hayez_044.jpg]</a>





Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:There are new members and those who have not heard of or read Cardinal Siri's letter. Since this debate won't go away I thought it opprtune to provide the Cardinal's views for those who did not have the chance to read them previously.

Well, people haven't read Quo Primum or Dignitatis Humanae either, that debate hasn't gone away, and I wouldn't want those posted every few weeks.

Maybe you can give it a prominent place on your blog?

Quote:I suppose there was some other thread discussing cultural differences, but I don't think the OP there was focusing in particular about Cardinal Siri's claims as it was about cultural issues.

Didishroom hijacked Gerard's Williamson thread getting into a trousers argument with bonifacio, so I thought this thread would provide an outlet for them and a good starting point, and get the discussion out of the thread it was hijacking.


That's a good reason.

Unfortunately now we're on page 7 of the 8000th "Pants on Women" thread.  As you mention above, it won't go away.  And the reason it won't go away is that no one's mind is changing and everything is being rehashed again with the same people taking the same sides.

So, I'm not sure what good it will do in the end.




Men's Dress Worn By Women - The_Harlequin_King - 02-06-2009

QuisutDeus Wrote:And the reason it won't go away is that no one's mind is changing and everything is being rehashed again with the same people taking the same sides.

You have to give me credit, Quis. At least I'm trying to introduce some new food for thought, even if it's not necessarily directly relevant to the topic at hand.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
QuisutDeus Wrote:And the reason it won't go away is that no one's mind is changing and everything is being rehashed again with the same people taking the same sides.

You have to give me credit, Quis. At least I'm trying to introduce some new food for thought, even if it's not necessarily directly relevant to the topic at hand.

Yes, androgeny is always a pleasant respite from the drudgery of defining male and female. :P



Men's Dress Worn By Women - The_Harlequin_King - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:This is indeed an excellent vision! Except of course I would let the men select different haircuts, as long as they met military standards and there would be a few conservative options for suits.

That would be a really short-haired, and bizarre, society. Even Cary Grant as pictured in your avatar wouldn't survive (hair growing over the ears).

Not that bizarre is a detraction, of course..... after all, it's me.

StevusMagnus Wrote:Oh, you mean the gay kind...

??? There isn't anything to indicate that typical Sikh warriors are gay. Plus, LaRoza posted an image of Samson the Judge. Not exactly a poster-boy for homosexuality, either.

StevusMagnus Wrote:Woman in pants...

[Image: 6303383319.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg]


I think this more goes to show that there is such a thing as women's pants and men's pants. Those are definitely not women's pants, but a woman wearing women's pants would be very distinguishably female.