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Men's Dress Worn By Women - The_Harlequin_King - 02-06-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
The_Harlequin_King Wrote:I support all the traditional orders, including the SSPX.

You have a funny way of showing it.

From what I've seen, I would consider Saint Nicolas du Chardonnet one of the most ideal churches in the world, at least liturgy-wise. Better than mine, for sure. That's why I cited it in the first place. I frequently cited the example of Chardonnet when working with the music program at the local diocesan TLM. They weren't really amenable to it, though, it being too "fru-fru" among other things. I eventually got run out along with the rest of my Gregorian schola.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Cantus - 02-06-2009

The argument is out of control.  The ideas are rhetorical not logical.  I will not comment again no matter how out of context people are trying to take my examples and statements.  You are all in my prayers.

Virtus et veritas.




Men's Dress Worn By Women - SaintRafael - 02-06-2009

As for all the criticisms,

Pants were not invented and in use during the time of Christ. Men wore robes.

A robe is not the same thing as a dress. A dress is a feminine garment invented for the sole use of women and for the female body.

Pants were invented for men, to be used by men, and for the male body.

That pants are now made for women and worn by women in our culture, is just an example of our modern paganism, and the apostasy from our previous Christian culture and its Catholic morals.

For those that claim the clothes have no nature because they are man made objects, it shows their deficiency in philosophy. Aesthetics is a branch of philosophy that deals with the value of objects. After all, art is a man made object that has a certain nature too.




Men's Dress Worn By Women - INPEFESS - 02-06-2009

Wow, I really don't see what's so confusing about this.

If an attractive woman with a beautiful figure walks past me in a skirt, I'm going to think she's pretty, modest, and feminine. It is unlikely that I will be tempted to lust after her as there is nothing specifically seen after which to lust. If that same attractive woman with a beautiful figure walks past me wearing pants (regardless of how modest they are), I am instinctively inclined and often instantly tempted and to look at her waist, legs, and buttocks. Once you have unconsciously submitted to a sexual instinct, it then becomes the problem of resisting the instinct and looking away (which is very difficult considering you're already staring). This places men in a peculiar situation whereby they often submit to sin when they otherwise would not be as tempted to look. A man, seeing a woman wearing a modest skirt, may instinctively glance at her self, but seeing nothing specific upon which to focus, he will realize his error and turn his eyes away lest he should entertain sinful thoughts. That same man, upon seeing that same woman wearing pants, will instinctively glance at her self and often, seeing her outlined legs, hips, and buttocks, will struggle to pull his eyes from her body as the thoughts are much more easily formulated and already taking possession of his mind.

Maybe I'm wrong, but speaking for every man that I know well, a woman wearing pants is an immediate source of temptation whereas a woman wearing a skirt is not as much.

The question here should not be so much history and culture as it should be moral theology. History changes and culture is amendable, but God's moral standards don't do either.

However, I’ll leave this to the more educated members of the forum to determine. But for any man I know, the answer is in our hearts. And for women? They really have no idea...



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Historian - 02-06-2009

INPEFESS Wrote:Wow, I really don't see what's so confusing about this.

If an attractive woman with a beautiful figure walks past me in a skirt, I'm going to think she's pretty, modest, and feminine. It is unlikely that I will be tempted to lust after her as there is nothing specifically seen after which to lust. If that same attractive woman with a beautiful figure walks past me wearing pants (regardless of how modest they are), I am instinctively inclined and often instantly tempted and to look at her waist, legs, and buttocks. Once you have unconsciously submitted to a sexual instinct, it then becomes the problem of resisting the instinct and looking away (which is very difficult considering you're already staring). This places men in a peculiar situation whereby they often submit to sin when they otherwise would not be as tempted to look. A man, seeing a woman wearing a modest skirt, may instinctively glance at her self, but seeing nothing specific upon which to focus, he will realize his error and turn his eyes away lest he should entertain sinful thoughts. That same man, upon seeing that same woman wearing pants, will instinctively glance at her self and often, seeing her outlined legs, hips, and buttocks, will struggle to pull his eyes from her body as the thoughts are much more easily formulated and already taking possession of his mind.

Maybe I'm wrong, but speaking for every man that I know well, a woman wearing pants is an immediate source of temptation whereas a woman wearing a skirt is not as much.

That really depends on the type of pants and type of skirt.

I am a muscular man and there is nothing I can do to hide certain aspects of my body while maintaining any adhereance to normal clothing. I do my best though. There is a limit to what can be put on the person. It is true that one's eyes may be drawn to certain parts of someone's body, but that is not always the fault of the wearer.

If a person (man or woman) is wearing an accepted style of clothing with modesty in mind, that person can't be blamed for the temptations of others. Next thing you'll know, men and women will be wearing burqa like clothes.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - moneil - 02-06-2009

SaintRafael Wrote:Pants were not invented and in use during the time of Christ. Men wore robes.

A robe is not the same thing as a dress. A dress is a feminine garment invented for the sole use of women and for the female body.


Would you be so kind as to point out the difference between a "dress" and a "robe" in this picture?  Obviously, the woman is wearing a veil, but otherwise, the difference is?

[Image: HolyFamily-1.jpg][url=http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq305/Mike73Coug/HolyFamily-1.jpg][/url]



Men's Dress Worn By Women - INPEFESS - 02-06-2009

Quote:That really depends on the type of pants and type of skirt.

I am a muscular man and there is nothing I can do to hide certain aspects of my body while maintaining any adhereance to normal clothing. I do my best though. There is a limit to what can be put on the person. It is true that one's eyes may be drawn to certain parts of someone's body, but that is not always the fault of the wearer.

If a person (man or woman) is wearing an accepted style of clothing with modesty in mind, that person can't be blamed for the temptations of others. Next thing you'll know, men and women will be wearing burqa like clothes.

Well, there are ambiguities, but I think my point is clear. If you make an effort to cover yourself with a modest skirt, that is going to be less tempting than someone whose clothes outline what the skirt is supposed to hide. I'm talking about the usual pants for females, even the 'looser' ones. I'm not referring to burqas. Females aren't generally as tempted to look at a man's legs as a man is to look at a females. As a general rule, it is less of a temptation. If it is a concern that women may be looking at your body, cover up in whatever way you can. If it's severely impractical to hide it, then it's not your fault - at least you're trying. Women today make no effort to hide it by wearing a skirt. Regardless of what physique they possess, most of them just wear pants anyway without a valid, moral excuse.


Men's Dress Worn By Women - SaintRafael - 02-06-2009

moneil Wrote:Would you be so kind as to point out the difference between a "dress" and a "robe" in this picture?  Obviously, the woman is wearing a veil, but otherwise, the difference is?

[Image: HolyFamily-1.jpg][url=http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq305/Mike73Coug/HolyFamily-1.jpg][/url]

There is no difference because the man and woman in the picture are both wearing robes. The modern dress for women had not been invented at this point in history.

The garment now known as a female dress was invented by a Western Christian society centuries after Christ.

Compare the robe that the woman is wearing in the picture, with a modern dress, and then you will see the difference.



Men's Dress Worn By Women - Telemaque - 02-06-2009

Interesting commentary on St. Paul's advice on head coverings:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/headcoverings3.html

Women:

[Image: ancient.jpg]

Men

[Image: ancient2.jpg]


Men's Dress Worn By Women - INPEFESS - 02-06-2009

Quote:That really depends on the type of pants and type of skirt.

I'm talking about a modest, full skirt versus a pair of loose-fitting slacks or comfortably-fitting jeans (for women). Regardless of what modesty is in mind, I am going to be much more inclined to stare (even if it's not squeezing tight) at the pelvic area of the female in a sinful manner.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is tempted in this way.