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Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - Printable Version

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Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - didishroom - 02-15-2009

On another thread which was locked, a certain person made an unjust assumption that all the Jews who were sent to Auschwitz went to hell.

Many said this was wrong because the Church has never declared anyone specific to be in hell. She only declares who is in heaven.

But is this true? I'm not looking for a fight or trying to cause trouble. I just want a mature and honest discussion and to see what people think based on these excerpts I have provided.

The first place is the Bible. The Book of Numbers 16:

And when they were departed from their tents round about, <B>Dathan and Abiron</B> coming out stood in the entry of their pavilions <B>with their wives and children, and all the people</B>.  And Moses said: By this you shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all things that you see, and that I have not forged them of my own head: If these men die the common death of men, and if they be visited with a plague, wherewith others also are wont to be visited, the Lord did not send me.  But if the Lord do a new thing, and the <B>earth opening her mouth swallow them down</B>, and all things that belong to them, and <B>they go down alive into hell</B>, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.

This was confirmed in Eccesiasticus 45:23,24
And strangers stood up against him, and through envy the men that were with <B>Dathan and Abiron</B>, compassed him about in the wilderness, and the congregation of Core in their wrath. The Lord God saw and it pleased him not, and they were consumed in his wrathful indignation.  He wrought wonders upon them, and <B>consumed them with a flame of fire</B>.
 
Jesus said Judas was in hell. John 17,12
Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and <B>none of them is lost</B>, <B>but</B> the <B>son of perdition</B>, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

Jesus said in Luke 16 that the rich man also died: and he <B>was buried in hell</B>.

Peter said the same of Simon Magnus in Acts 8, 20.
Keep thy money to thyself, to <B>perish</B> with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

St. Edmund Capion wrote that Judas and the Protestant Reformers Martin Luther and Zwingli were in hell.
You will gain nothing except perhpas <B>to be tortured</B> somewhat less horribly in the <B>everlasting fire</B> than <B>Judas, or Luther or Zwingli.</B>
 
St. Robert Bellermine wrote that the Jews who killed Christ, Pilate, Judas and Herod for nearly 2,000 years...have been <B>suffering the torments of hell</B>, and their cries of despair will be heard forever and ever.
 
The Roman Breviary( St. Peter Mavimenus) wrote that Mohammed, your false prophet is <B>damned. </B>
I believe the Holy Office wrote to St. Francis Xavier that Confuscious was damned. I just can't find the reference for that one.
<B></B> 
So thoughts?
 




Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

It is known that a few people went to Hell who chose it, but that was by divine revelation. No person can judge.


Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - didishroom - 02-15-2009

Oh I agree with on that. But I'm trying to show that it's possibly incorrect to say the Church has never who's in hell.



Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - 7HolyCats - 02-15-2009

Quote:It is known that a few people went to Hell who chose it, but that was by divine revelation.

I dont think anyone in Public Revelation.

Dathan and Abiron were in the Old Testament, remember, where "hell" also can mean just the limbo of the fathers.

But in this case, there is no reason to think even that. The Bible is describing literal miraculous events that happened while they were still alive. A sink-hole or fissure literally opened in the earth and swallowed them in the story. The fire referred to was, literally, a fire that came down from the sky and destroyed them. It is describing something that happened to them physically, in the flesh. However, it is silent on the fate of their souls.

Quote:Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and <b>none of them is lost</b>, <b>but</b> the <b>son of perdition</b>, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

This I think is the most suggestive of all of them, and I personally think Judas is almost certainly in hell. But it is not conclusive. Jesus is speaking here in Gethsemene while Judas was <i>still alive</i>, remember, and though he was surely lost <i>at that point</i>, perhaps He could still have been "found" as it were, in his last moments as he hanged.

Quote:Jesus said in Luke 16 that the rich man also died: and he <b>was buried in hell</b>.

But Lazarus and Dives is a parable. It doesnt necessarily describe real people anymore than the Good Samaritan or Prodigal Son. It certainly tells us Hell is the theoretical destination of those who die in mortal sin. It does not say anyone actually has in fact, as Dives was merely a <i>character</i> in a parable, not a real person (regardless of medieval pious imagination which sometimes misunderstood parables as real accounts of historical events)

Quote:Peter said the same of Simon Magnus in Acts 8, 20.
Keep thy money to thyself, to <b>perish</b> with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Again, seems to me to refer mainly to bodily death. Namely, money is perishable just as is our life on this earth. To physical mortality, not any certainty of faith on damnation of Simon Magus, however likely it seems to me. But one may hope for his salvation without being a heretic. It is not a dogmatic fact in itself, and is not necessarily implied by any dogma.

Quote:St. Edmund Capion wrote that Judas and the Protestant Reformers Martin Luther and Zwingli were in hell.
You will gain nothing except perhpas <b>to be tortured</b> somewhat less horribly in the <b>everlasting fire</b> than <b>Judas, or Luther or Zwingli.</b>

And I just said Judas is probably in hell. But neither I nor St Edmund Campion are the Pope, and neither of our statements (nor even private revelations showing souls in hell) constitute an infallible statement of a Publically Revealed truth. One may hope for the salvation of Luther without being a heretic.
 
Quote:St. Robert Bellermine wrote that the Jews who killed Christ, Pilate, Judas and Herod for nearly 2,000 years...have been <b>suffering the torments of hell</b>, and their cries of despair will be heard forever and ever.

Again, not Pope, not a statement of dogma, nor dogmatic fact. Dante put souls in hell too. Of course he did. It is likely, it seems, and served the literary purpose. But all this hardly constitutes a revealed truth or dogmatic fact. There is a long tradition saying Pilate was saved anyway.
 
Quote:The Roman Breviary( St. Peter Mavimenus) wrote that Mohammed, your false prophet is <b>damned. </b>

Again, this doesnt constitute a dogmatic fact in the way a Canonization does for someone being in heaven. St Peter Mavimenus though Mohammed was in hell. I think that's likely too. That doesnt make it de fide, and the Breviary was merely quoting what he said.

You can find a million cases where people have, privately, judged people as almost certainly in hell. None of them are dogmatic facts like canonizations, however.

In our own lives, we tend to think of our loved ones (hopefully) as in purgatory or heaven even though we have no magisterial statement on the matter.

There are canonizations of the Saints, and moral certitude may be had for baptized infants (assuming the baptism was valid)...but there is no such thing as an anti-canonization. That is beyond the Church's scope to define.

Quote:I believe the Holy Office wrote to St. Francis Xavier that Confuscious was damned. I just can't find the reference for that one.

Actually, I believe this was to Matteo Ricci, and it wasnt the Holy Office, just a rival superior, in what may be seen as an early example of the "Feeney" debate:
Quote:The Jesuits' pragmatic accommodation with Confucianism was later to lead to conflict with the Dominican friars, who came to Beijing from the Philippines in the middle of the century. Their leader, Dominigo Fernandez Navarrete, in responding to the question, 'Was Confucious saved?' said that since Greek philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Seneca and others were all damned "how much the more Confucius, who was not worthy to kiss their feet"? In responding, Antonio de Gouveia, a Portuguese Jesuit, said that Confucius was certainly saved, "which is more than can be said for King Philip IV of Spain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_in_China



Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

I think the rich man is not a parable and Judas is a clear candidate as Jesus states it would be better if he had no been born and there are other references to it.

I only think the one person for whom we have personal information is Judas.



Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

Judas, Satan and His Angels and everyone on this planet who died in a state of mortal sin.



Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - 7HolyCats - 02-15-2009

Quote:Judas,

He's the most likely, certainly. But even Judas's damnation is not, strictly speaking, revealed.

Quote:Satan and His Angels

Yes. But they arent human.

Also, dont capitalize the "h" when the pronoun refers to Satan!! That is done for God...

Quote:and everyone on this planet who died in a state of mortal sin.

Hypothetically yes. The thing is, we do not know, with the certainty of faith, that any given person has ever died in the state of mortal sin, though it seems likely.

Quote:I think the rich man is not a parable

Then what is it? There is no reason to take some of the stories Jesus uses as parables and others as literal history. This was a demonstrative tale. Its purpose was teaching a moral lesson. Why would it be historical?? I see no indication for that. The Gospel today for Sexagesima mentioned a sower too. Are you going to insist that there really was a sower sowing seeds that Jesus was specifically referring to?

Quote:and Judas is a clear candidate as Jesus states it would be better if he had no been born

Again, seems extremely likely to me, but not 100% unambiguous, especially since never definitely determined by the Church to mean damnation.

Not "being born" is different than not being <i>conceived</i> (ie, never existing at all). Maybe Judas is going to be in purgatory until the end of time and Jesus is saying it would have been better if He had simply been miscarried or stillborn (but still existed).

Judas's damnation is not an article of faith nor a dogmatic fact.



Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

Condemned heretics that were executed at the stake seem a likely option given their final impenitence.

And as for Judas, besides betraying the son of God, he killed himself which is another mortal sin.

Furthermore we have the words of Our Blessed Mother at Fatima that clearly referred to poor souls going to Hell.




Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - 7HolyCats - 02-15-2009

Quote:Condemned heretics that were executed at the stake seem a likely option given their final impenitence.

<i>Likely</i>, yes. I agree. But not beyond all hope. We dont know if they repented in their last moments.

Quote:And as for Judas, besides betraying the son of God, he killed himself which is another mortal sin.

Yes, yes, I agree. But he may have repented as he hanged there. Who knows, it hasnt been defined for sure. I find his salvation very unlikely. But not beyond a tiny sliver of hope.



Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

Quote:Furthermore we have the words of Our Blessed Mother at Fatima that clearly referred to poor souls going to Hell.

Her words should clearly indicate us that there are really people who are damned to Hell.