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God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - Printable Version

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God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

I do think it would be an astonishing assertation if it were alone, but the logic leading up to it was there, and it was continued on (and if they completed the article using the teachings of the Church, it would be shown to be false)


God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - 7HolyCats - 02-15-2009

Well, we know God is omnipotent. Hell is, in the end, the result of a state of Free Will permantized by death. We know theologians say God <i>could</i> theoretically force someone's will, too. Does He ever? It is universally thought not. Especially not AFTER death (if He was going to do it, why not just do it before?)

But the question involves speculation about individual cases and possibilities, and as such is beyond the scope of Revelation (mere possibilities being infinite with an omnipotent God), and thus not necessarily heresy to believe it personally (though what evidence you'd have to suspect this for a particular case, I dont know).

Also, just remember the old story of Pope St Gregory raising the emperor Trajan from the dead to baptize him. In the Middle Ages this was just taken for granted as a case of a soul being miraculous freed from hell (using the ordinary means of salvation even!). Does the legend hold up upon deeper theological scrutiny? Not really. But its wide acceptance by Saints and theologians...shows it is not strictly speaking a heretical thought.



God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

7HolyCats Wrote:Well, we know God is omnipotent. Hell is, in the end, the result of a state of Free Will permantized by death. But we know God CAN theoretically force someone's will, too. Does He ever? It is not thought so. But that was not positively revealed.

Sometimes God is quite compelling for certain people. St Paul, Jonas and others were given not so subtle hints, but I do not think that means there was a violation of free will, just a strong assertations of God's will.


God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:I don't know that it shows it to be <B>false</B> but that we can proceed with moral certitude that it does not happen since it is the consensus of theologians.

Since when has the "consensus of theologians" provided us with moral certitude? Please quote the Council that defined this axiom. Only the Magisterium can give us moral certitude on anything, not theologians.

I don't know that a Council defined it.  It is a premise of Catholic theology:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03539b.htm

Quote:It is, then, <!--k02=10559a.htmmoral<!--u73 <!--k04=xxyyyk.htmcertitude<!--u44 that is attainable by the <!--k04=12673b.htmreason<!--u66 as to the fact of Divine revelation. The <!--k04=xxyyyk.htmcertitude<!--u44 of faith is supernatural, being due to Divine grace, and is superior not merely to <!--k04=10559a.htmmoral<!--u73 <!--k04=xxyyyk.htmcertitude<!--u44, but to the <!--k04=xxyyyk.htmcertitude<!--u44 of physical science, and to that of the demonstrative sciences. When it is a question whether any particular truth is contained within the deposit of <!--k04=13001a.htmrevelation<!--u76, the <!--k23certainty of faith can be obtained only from the authority of the "teaching <!--k02=03744a.htmChurch<!--u63", but <FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">a <!--k02=09580c.htmhuman<!--u66 <!--k04=xxyyyk.htmcertitude<!--u44 may be obtained by arguments drawn from the inferior and subordinate <!--k03=xxyyyk.htmauthorities<!--u44 such as the <!--k03=x61583.htmFathers<!--u44 and the "Schola Theologica".<!--k01=x98989.htm </FONT>

Quote:The Theological Grades of Certainty <P class=introat>- "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma"
by Ludwig Ott.

1. The highest degree of certainty appertains to the immediately revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact it a truth is contained in Revelation, one's certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fides catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are "<B>de fide definita</B>."
2. Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sole authority of the Church (fides ecclesiastica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.
3. <FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">A Teaching proximate to Faith (<B>sententia fidei proxima</B>) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation</FONT>, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.
4. <FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">A Teaching pertaining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions).</FONT>
<FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">5. Common Teaching (<B>sententia communis</B>) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.</FONT>
<FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00">6. Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilior, bene fundata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata), which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church. </FONT>
With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions of the Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible.
Nevertheless normally they are to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus internus supernaturalis, assensus religiosus). The so-called "silentium obsequiosum," that is "reverent silence," does not generally suffice. By way of exception, the obligation of inner agreement may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error.

The consensus of theologians does provide a degree of certainty, varying as shown above, but not as much as that of a dogmatic pronouncement.



God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - 7HolyCats - 02-15-2009

Quote:Sometimes God is quite compelling for certain people. St Paul, Jonas and others were given not so subtle hints, but I do not think that means there was a violation of free will, just a strong assertations of God's will.

I agree. But theologians are unanimous that God <i>could</i> force a will, just that He doesnt ever out of respect for our moral liberty.





God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - StevusMagnus - 02-15-2009

QuisUtDeus Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, so why were you floored?  Is it because you know this to be a heresy and see a false statement, or because you believed it to be a heresy and found the opposite in the CE?

I was floored because of the astonishing nature of the assertion in the CE.

OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

The notion that in itself, it is <!--note should this say a rejection?no rejection of <a target="_blank" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm">Catholic</a> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05089a.htm">dogma</a> to suppose that <a target="_blank" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm">God</a> might at times, by way of exception, liberate a <a target="_blank" href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm">soul</a> from hell.



God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - 7HolyCats - 02-15-2009

I'll say it again: just remember the old story (found in Dante, and the Golden Legend) of Pope St Gregory raising the emperor Trajan from the dead to baptize him. In the Middle Ages this was just taken for granted as a case of a soul being miraculous freed from hell. The story started as Pope Gregory just praying for the release of his soul, and evolved to even a story of resurrecting him from hell and baptizing him! Does the legend hold up upon deeper theological scrutiny? Not really. But its wide acceptance by Saints and theologians...shows it is not strictly speaking a heretical thought.


God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

LaRoza Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

I do think it would be an astonishing assertation if it were alone, but the logic leading up to it was there, and it was continued on (and if they completed the article using the teachings of the Church, it would be shown to be false)

OK, so that's what I asked Stevus.  Can you find an authoritative declaration that it is false?  Or, failing that, can you ascribe the correct theological degree of certainty to the statement by the theologians?

Because if it is sententia communis or below, it belongs to the field of free opinions.

Denziger would state (at the time of printing) what degree of certainty this teaching was held to be at.  If people are claiming it is heretical, I'm just asking for evidence.



God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - Historian - 02-15-2009

StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:OK, so why were you floored?  Is it because you know this to be a heresy and see a false statement, or because you believed it to be a heresy and found the opposite in the CE?

I was floored because of the astonishing nature of the assertion in the CE.

OK, this is like 20 questions.

Can you state what exactly was "astonishing" about it?

The notion that in itself, it is <!--note should this say a rejection?no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell.

Back to square one.

Is this astonishing because you assumed it was Catholic dogma, or because you know it to be Catholic dogma based on something you can cite?



God Can Deliver the Damned From Hell? - JacafamalaRedux - 02-15-2009

Just kicking it around, I don't know if it's so, but there are many near death experience accounts in which the "dead" person is rescued from demons. Perhaps there's a flip side to the beatific vision, like an "ape" of the beatific vision. Perhaps before this hellish ape of a vision; the vision that seals one's fate, one can still be delivered. Again, I don't know, I'm just speculating here.