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Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Printable Version

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Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Ruination_ipa - 04-09-2009

Is Pope Benedict XVI wrong to suggest that the Second Vatican Council was wrongly interpreted and that we should strive to seek out the true meaning and intent of the council fathers? 


Pope Paul VI is the Pope who inherited the Council, upon the death of Pope John XXIII, and saw it through until it’s conclusion in 1965. The implication of finding the ‘true meaning’ of Vatican II is that Pope Paul VI really didn’t understand the intent of the Council he presided over nor of the documents which he promulgated nor the intentions of the Council fathers themselves. We would like to think that the documents were intended to be interpreted in the best (read conservative) possible light but what if that were never the intention? It’s been said that the Council had been hijacked by progressivists but in truth could it be that the conservatives are the ones attempting to misinterpret the council documents? This seems to be the implication in the final few paragraphs of “The Rhine Flows into the Tiber: A History of Vatican II” (Tan Books) by Fr. Ralph M. Wiltgen SVD – International Publicity Director in Rome during Vatican II.


On January 3, 1966, Pope Paul by an Apostolic Letter created five Post-Conciliar commissions. Such commissions had originally been suggested to him by the European and world alliances, because they feared that progressive measures adopted by the Council might be blocked by conservative forces near the Pope once the Council Fathers had all returned home.


Here you had the European and world alliances (the progressivists) who held a majority in most of the Council’s committees unashamedly worried that conservatives would be the ones doing the misinterpreting after the Council and you have Pope Paul VI mostly backing their progressive ideas during the Council with the exception of a few notable instances such as his insistence on Mary being called ‘Mother of the Church.’ 


As most of you know the concept of the “reform of the reform” came from former Cardinal Ratzinger and seeks to implement the ‘true’ intent of the Council. However, again, does this not fly in the face of Pope Paul VI’s implementation of the 2nd Vatican Council; the very Council who’s documents he himself had promulgated and implemented including the Novus Ordo Missae?  





Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Historian - 04-09-2009

The Church is not a human institution. All its councils must be used in light of tradition. There is no exception.
Even if VII was intended by its people to be radically new, it cannot be because the Holy Spirit won't allow it. If the gates of Hell won't prevail, neither will hippies.



Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - OCLittleFlower - 04-09-2009

Rosarium Wrote:If the gates of Hell won't prevail, neither will hippies.


LOL

Thank you so much!  I now understand the origin of hippies.  [Image: amen2.gif]



Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - kjvail - 04-20-2009

[pre]On January 3, 1966, Pope Paul by an Apostolic Letter created five Post-Conciliar commissions. Such commissions had originally been suggested to him by the European and world alliances, because they feared that progressive measures adopted by the Council might be blocked by conservative forces near the Pope once the Council Fathers had all returned home.[/pre]

For the last couple of years I have been surrounded by leftists (even more than usual).
It's interesting (psychologically) for me to note many of them have the same notions of persecution by conservatives that I see here from conservatives / trads in reference to leftists. In other words, both sides seem to think that they are in the minority and all the power is held by their opponents.
I'm sure that's a fascinating example of some group dynamics, perhaps I'll do some research.



Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Historian - 04-20-2009

Being a "victim" of forces beyond one's power is a comfortable place for one's self-esteem because failure is out of one's control.  It's not my fault I failed - The Man held me down.  This stops us from realizing we suck as bad as we do and incurring psychic damage.


Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Baskerville - 04-20-2009

I think that Benedict XVI is right. Paul VI was one of our Churches worst Popes he was conservative one day then liberal the next. I don't know what to make of Paul VI he said the smoke of satan had entered the Church but he was the reason for it by proxy of allowing all the innovations and new Mass into the Church. Benedict XVI is at least somewhat more consistant true he does the liberl one day and conservative the other but where the reform of the reform is he is solid. Where as Paul VI didnt know what was up. Or did and consented to it.


Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - didishroom - 04-21-2009

Paul VI was probably one of the worst of the 20th century but not history.
I don't have the disdain for him that so many Trads do. I just feel sorry for him. I believe he thought he was doing the right thing but put too much trust in man, like the Council itself and the UN instead of God or Fatima. I think he recognized the problem but thought it too late for him to stop or change things. We should still pray for his soul.


Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Baskerville - 04-21-2009

Well I do have disdain for him he was supposed to be the Shepherd but he let the wolves devour the flock. Nevertheless I do feel sorry for him at the same time he seemed clueless. Like a deer caught in headlights.

Didi, its true wev'e had worse Popes on a personal moral scale but other than the couple that were borderline arian we never had a Pope that completely obliterated the Church and then did nothing to stop it. JPII could have started the restoration but he was to busy being a rock star its all been dumped in our poor 82 year old Holy Fathers lap. What a mess. :pray:


Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Baskerville - 04-21-2009

Iv'e heard some hilarious conspiracy theories about this one is that there were actualy TWO Pope Paul VI's  :tinfoilhat:


Re: Vatican II : Pope Paul VI's vision VS Pope Benedict XVI's - Pro Tridentina (Malta) - 03-08-2014

(04-20-2009, 11:37 PM)Baskerville Wrote: I think that Benedict XVI is right. Paul VI was one of our Churches worst Popes he was conservative one day then liberal the next. I don't know what to make of Paul VI he said the smoke of satan had entered the Church but he was the reason for it by proxy of allowing all the innovations and new Mass into the Church. Benedict XVI is at least somewhat more consistant true he does the liberl one day and conservative the other but where the reform of the reform is he is solid. Where as Paul VI didnt know what was up. Or did and consented to it.

In some aspects both Paul VI and Benedict XVI were similar as the quotes mentioned in this link indicate:

http://www.godwinxuereb.blogspot.com/2014/03/similarities-between-paul-vi-and.html