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Should torture ever be allowed? - Printable Version

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Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - didishroom - 04-29-2009

Quote:I don't know that the enslavement in Egypt was wrong for the same reasons.  I don't think the Egyptians were particularly inhumane, but rather, the slavery was against God's active will to save the human race.

And the Lord said to him: I have seen the affliction of my people in Egypt, and [i]I have heard their cry
because of the rigour of them that are over the works: And knowing their sorrow, I am come down to deliver them out of the hands of the Egyptians, and to bring them out of that land into a good and spacious land, into a land that floweth with milk and honey, to the places of the Chanaanite, and Hethite, and Amorrhite, and Pherezite, and Hevite, and Jebusite. For the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have seen their affliction, wherewith they are oppressed by the Egyptians. But come, and I will send thee to Pharao, that thou mayst bring forth my people, the children of Israel out of Egypt. [/i]


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 09:09 PM)didishroom Wrote:
Quote:I don't know that the enslavement in Egypt was wrong for the same reasons.  I don't think the Egyptians were particularly inhumane, but rather, the slavery was against God's active will to save the human race.

And the Lord said to him: I have seen the affliction of my people in Egypt, and [i]I have heard their cry
because of the rigour of them that are over the works: And knowing their sorrow, I am come down to deliver them out of the hands of the Egyptians, and to bring them out of that land into a good and spacious land, into a land that floweth with milk and honey, to the places of the Chanaanite, and Hethite, and Amorrhite, and Pherezite, and Hevite, and Jebusite. For the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have seen their affliction, wherewith they are oppressed by the Egyptians. But come, and I will send thee to Pharao, that thou mayst bring forth my people, the children of Israel out of Egypt. [/i]

Well, that doesn't say they were worked hard or unfairly. Also, consider they wandered the desert for the next 40 years and were suffering with lack of water, food and the snakes...

They also said:

John 8:32-33 Wrote:And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man: how sayest thou: you shall be free?

I think the issue wasn't that they were in Egypt and physically suffering, but they were not in the right land and were not free and suffered more internally than externally.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Bonifacius - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 09:07 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:Do you have a theological argument or just an emotional reaction to offer?

Mine is an emotional reaction. If the CCC is "theology" then I go with that one. . . .

But no matter the era we live in, our standards for morality should be the standards of Christ. Does torture live up to it?
- Lisa

Several people commenting here have repeatedly demonstrated that the Catechism alone is an insufficient guide here.  Plus, it does *not* address the ticking timebomb situation.  I will go on record as saying, "Yes, in some circumstances some of the practices that we commonly call torture do live up the standards of Christ.  There are instances where we morally may kill in self-defense and the defense of others.  Likewise, there are instances where we may morally inflict pain in self-defense and defense of others."  


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Bonifacius - 04-29-2009

Rosarium,

The cause of the affliction included the "rigor" of the taskmasters.  In addition to the fact that they had harsh taskmasters, they shouldn't have had taskmasters to begin with as they had not done anything worthy of being enslaved.  They had harsh taskmasters, and yet they also enjoyed the fleshpots.  It was the best of times (when remembered in the desert of Sinai), it was the worst of times.  I am sorry for introducing this distraction.  My point was that the Church has never condemned slavery in se, Vat. II & JPII condemn slavery & torture in the same terms, hence we may ask whether they condemn torture in se.  So it all goes back to torture. 


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 09:07 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:Do you have a theological argument or just an emotional reaction to offer?

Mine is an emotional reaction. If the CCC is "theology" then I go with that one.

Luther's Theses are "theology".  We should hold to a theology that is consistent with Tradition and Scripture.

Quote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:  Well, if you want to handpick which parts of the Gospel you are going to use in this case, so will I: Then the master sent for him. "You wicked servant," he said, "I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me. Were you not bound, then, to have pity on your fellow servant just as I had pity on you?" And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt. And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart. (Matt 18:32-35)

Jesus didn't complain about the torture, in fact, He used it as an allegory for what will happen to those who die not forgiving others.  Would He use an intrinsic evil as an allegorical mechanism?  Interesting question.  I don't know the answer, and I don't expect anyone else on the forum does either.

Again, as I said in an earlier post, these allegories, parables, beatitudes, sermons, examples, etc., are not excuses for the bad behavior of others. Jesus uses stories about strict taskmasters and land owners because the people of the day could certainly relate to it. Debtor's prison was an everyday reality. Torture was an everyday reality. Crucifixion was everyday reality. But I think you answered your own question. The parable you quoted is a lesson about the virtue of FORGIVENESS - not the virtues of torture.

It's a lesson about the virture of forgiveness, sure, but the point is He says nothing about torture either pro or con.  In fact, show me one place in the Bible that torture is condemned outright.  You won't find it as far as I recall in my Bible reading.  So, that leaves the Magisterium to discern it.  Which is why I called foul when you said to look at the Sermon on the Mount.  That has nothing to do with torture either that I can see, but more importantly the Magisterium hasn't said it does, nor does it say that torture is always intrinsically evil.  Or are you willing to imply 3 popes and a bunch of bishops of prescribed intrinsically evil behavior?  I mean, they certainly could have especially if they did not know it was intrinsically evil.  I'm just saying that for me it will take more than a few Scripture verses with my own understanding of them to compel me to say that they did prescribe an intrinsic evil.

Quote:
QuisUtDeus Wrote:The point is that we can't pick and choose how the Scripture applies, the Magisterium does, and that is what we are discussing - whether or not the Magisterium has done so in the case of torture.  You and a few others seem convinced that torture is forbidden, signed, sealed, and delivered.  And there is always the reference to "in this day" as if the year had anything to do with the sin.

Quis, you have a point. The year has nothing to do with the sin. What was a sin in biblical times, was a sin in the Middles Ages, and is a sin today. But no matter the era we live in, our standards for morality should be the standards of Christ. Does torture live up to it?

I dunno if torture lives up to it.  That's the whole point of moral theology - to discern what is moral or not; what holds up to God's standards.

St. Thomas Aquinas thought torture was OK.  He's a Doctor of the Church.  Clearly, he could be wrong because he wasn't infallible, but he didn't see a conflict between torturing a heretic and the standards of Christ.  So, all that means is there is some work needed to discern it one way or the other.  But that work is accomplished with reason, discussion, and thought, not by emotion.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Bonifacius - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 09:07 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Again, as I said in an earlier post, these allegories, parables, beatitudes, sermons, examples, etc., are not excuses for the bad behavior of others.

Once again, you beg the question -- we're asking precisely whether torture is always and ever bad behavior. 


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Marc - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 08:30 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Then he gives, and I have to admit I laughed out loud at this, the argument that being a torturer opens one to sexual sins...
Quote:that role or function will tend to attract in practice, as the only persons in society willing to carry out such a function, those sorry types of individuals who already have at least latent sadistic tendencies, and so will actually enjoy their grisly task. But precisely in that situation, another type of grave sin (or at least the near occasion thereof) will be involved: that of cruelly delighting in the infliction of intense pain, often accompanied by perverse sexual satisfaction.

Wow. Who does Fr. Harrison think these torturers are? Police officers?
(cf. the FE forum archives) ::)

Just a little levity, folks.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 09:40 PM)Marc Wrote: Wow. Who does Fr. Harrison think these torturers are? Police officers?
(cf. the FE forum archives) ::)

Just a little levity, folks.

Couldn't you ask about something less emotionally charged like women in pants? :P

:fish:


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - didishroom - 04-29-2009

On a lighter note of this debate, check out the Secular board. I just posted an article that criticises the supposed "torture" of Gitmo. I'm not sure how accurate the facts are, but if they are it shows, like slavery, we have different definitons of terms.


p.s. I don't know how to link to another thread, so my post is entitled "Muslims: We Do That On First dates"


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 04-29-2009

(04-29-2009, 10:25 PM)didishroom Wrote: On a lighter note of this debate, check out the Secular board. I just posted an article that criticises the supposed "torture" of Gitmo. I'm not sure how accurate the facts are, but if they are it shows, like slavery, we have different definitons of terms.


p.s. I don't know how to link to another thread, so my post is entitled "Muslims: We Do That On First dates"

Just post the address of the thread.

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3420768.0.html