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Should torture ever be allowed? - Printable Version

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Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - INPEFESS - 04-30-2009

(04-30-2009, 10:52 AM)Anastasia Wrote: :bomb: should now be used for all references to the ticking time bomb scenario, don't you think?
From under my chair, I'd like to pose a question: is prison considered torture? After all, men are confined in a small space for long periods of time, perhaps in solitary confinement, with daily humiliations.

Good question. I think there's a difference between punishment and torture. Punishment serves as 'retribution'. Torture (here) is being applied as prevention.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Baskerville - 04-30-2009

(04-29-2009, 10:29 AM)Walty Wrote: I was listening to a Catholic radio station yesterday and they had a moral theologian on to talk about just this specific issue.  I'll have to find his resources to back this up, but he talked extensively on how torture cannot be permissible under any circumstances.  This is not, again, one of these 'lesser of two evils' issues.  He was specifically asked whether torturing a man who knew where a bomb was that would kill millions of people was morally permissible and he said that it isn't.  There are no exceptions with torture.  It is a gravely sinful act and must never be allowed.

Wow you used to get tortured for being a heretic now you cant even to same millions of people ::)


In answer to the question at hand YES and Abraham Foxman is top of the list.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - INPEFESS - 09-02-2009

I would say:

Romans 3: 6-10 Wrote:6 (I speak according to man.) God forbid: otherwise how shall God judge this world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie, unto his glory, why am I also yet judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just. 9 What then? Do we excel them? No, not so. For we have charged both Jews, and Greeks, that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: There is not any man just. [10 "There is not any man just"... viz. By virtue either of the law of nature, or of the law of Moses; but only by faith and grace].

In other words, the ends never justify the means, no matter what those ends may be. But I'm no theologian. I just thought this was applicable.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - DarkKnight - 09-02-2009

(04-30-2009, 10:05 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(04-30-2009, 08:32 AM)didishroom Wrote: They were also flaming homosexuals who say other songs like "Macho Man", "San Francisco" and "In the Navy."

It is suspected that was all a show, and they were actually straight.
Right?! Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. The Gay "journalists" would have outed them a long time ago - they're folk heroes of the Gay community.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 09-02-2009

(09-02-2009, 11:46 AM)DarkKnight Wrote: Right?! Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. The Gay "journalists" would have outed them a long time ago - they're folk heroes of the Gay community.

So is Judy Garland, but that doesn't mean anything about her.

People protect their icons, JFK, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc, so many times they can get away with a lot.

Also, you rejected my statements without asking for any evidence for them being true, and if you aren't prepared to investigate further, you don't deserve to know. It doesn't matter what you believe, but what is.

Victor Willis is married to a women, twice. He is the lead singer.

While it was formed by a gay man, and had gay members, their homosexuality was just for marketting. It is what made them popular.

t.A.T.u., another popular band which used homosexuality for marketting were actually all straight.




Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - DarkKnight - 09-02-2009

(09-02-2009, 11:58 AM)Rosarium Wrote: Victor Willis is married to a women, twice. He is the lead singer.

While it was formed by a gay man, and had gay members, their homosexuality was just for marketting. It is what made them popular.

So you cite a single member who could have either been straight or bi (a lot of that was going around during that time period) and concede that other members were Gay. Granted they clearly leveraged their Gay panache for marketing purposes a la Adam Ant, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie, et al. Ellen Degeneris would have passed into oblivion without her Gay manifesto.

I don't have to refute your evidence, you just provided it for me. :tiphat:




Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 09-02-2009

(09-02-2009, 12:10 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: So you cite a single member who could have either been straight or bi (a lot of that was going around during that time period) and concede that other members were Gay. Granted they clearly leveraged their Gay panache for marketing purposes a la Adam Ant, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie, et al. Ellen Degeneris would have passed into oblivion without her Gay manifesto.

I don't have to refute your evidence, you just provided it for me. :tiphat:

Er, calling the Village People "flaming homosexuals" (to what I original replied) includes the Village People. Victor Willis was long time and prominent member of them involved in the few songs mentioned. He wasn't homosexual. Therefore, the Village People are not "flaming homosexuals".

Might as well call the cast of Star Trek "flaming homosexuals" because one was homosexual.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - glgas - 09-02-2009

(04-29-2009, 10:29 AM)Walty Wrote: I was listening to a Catholic radio station yesterday and they had a moral theologian on to talk about just this specific issue.  I'll have to find his resources to back this up, but he talked extensively on how torture cannot be permissible under any circumstances.  This is not, again, one of these 'lesser of two evils' issues.  He was specifically asked whether torturing a man who knew where a bomb was that would kill millions of people was morally permissible and he said that it isn't.  There are no exceptions with torture.  It is a gravely sinful act and must never be allowed.

Not to mention the fact that we agreed to not torture many times including the Geneva Convention.  The fact that this government has done so is just further proof that they do whatever the heck they want and they couldn't care less about being dishonest, untrustworthy, and taking your civil rights.

We shall remember the Holy Inquisition used torture for the simply reason to speed up the process or deter other people.

I some cases it backfired (mental torture to St Joan of Arc), in some cases it was ubusive (torture of Savanarola and his associates) but moderate use kept a somewhat healthy Christian culture. So did the punishment of children, either et home and in the school. Abandoning the punishment resulted  serious bad effects.

The problem with the tortures of the Bush administration was not the act itself, but that it was not prevent something, but an unsuccessful trial to prove something what never happened: reason for the unjust war.




Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - INPEFESS - 09-02-2009

(09-02-2009, 11:46 AM)DarkKnight Wrote:
(04-30-2009, 10:05 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(04-30-2009, 08:32 AM)didishroom Wrote: They were also flaming homosexuals who say other songs like "Macho Man", "San Francisco" and "In the Navy."

It is suspected that was all a show, and they were actually straight.
Right?! Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. The Gay "journalists" would have outed them a long time ago - they're folk heroes of the Gay community.
(09-02-2009, 11:58 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(09-02-2009, 11:46 AM)DarkKnight Wrote: Right?! Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. The Gay "journalists" would have outed them a long time ago - they're folk heroes of the Gay community.

So is Judy Garland, but that doesn't mean anything about her.

People protect their icons, JFK, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc, so many times they can get away with a lot.

Also, you rejected my statements without asking for any evidence for them being true, and if you aren't prepared to investigate further, you don't deserve to know. It doesn't matter what you believe, but what is.

Victor Willis is married to a women, twice. He is the lead singer.

While it was formed by a gay man, and had gay members, their homosexuality was just for marketting. It is what made them popular.

t.A.T.u., another popular band which used homosexuality for marketting were actually all straight.
(09-02-2009, 12:10 PM)DarkKnight Wrote:
(09-02-2009, 11:58 AM)Rosarium Wrote: Victor Willis is married to a women, twice. He is the lead singer.

While it was formed by a gay man, and had gay members, their homosexuality was just for marketting. It is what made them popular.

So you cite a single member who could have either been straight or bi (a lot of that was going around during that time period) and concede that other members were Gay. Granted they clearly leveraged their Gay panache for marketing purposes a la Adam Ant, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie, et al. Ellen Degeneris would have passed into oblivion without her Gay manifesto.

I don't have to refute your evidence, you just provided it for me. :tiphat:
(09-02-2009, 12:18 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(09-02-2009, 12:10 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: So you cite a single member who could have either been straight or bi (a lot of that was going around during that time period) and concede that other members were Gay. Granted they clearly leveraged their Gay panache for marketing purposes a la Adam Ant, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie, et al. Ellen Degeneris would have passed into oblivion without her Gay manifesto.

I don't have to refute your evidence, you just provided it for me. :tiphat:

Er, calling the Village People "flaming homosexuals" (to what I original replied) includes the Village People. Victor Willis was long time and prominent member of them involved in the few songs mentioned. He wasn't homosexual. Therefore, the Village People are not "flaming homosexuals".

Might as well call the cast of Star Trek "flaming homosexuals" because one was homosexual.
(09-02-2009, 01:50 PM)glgas Wrote:
(04-29-2009, 10:29 AM)Walty Wrote: I was listening to a Catholic radio station yesterday and they had a moral theologian on to talk about just this specific issue.  I'll have to find his resources to back this up, but he talked extensively on how torture cannot be permissible under any circumstances.  This is not, again, one of these 'lesser of two evils' issues.  He was specifically asked whether torturing a man who knew where a bomb was that would kill millions of people was morally permissible and he said that it isn't.  There are no exceptions with torture.  It is a gravely sinful act and must never be allowed.

Not to mention the fact that we agreed to not torture many times including the Geneva Convention.  The fact that this government has done so is just further proof that they do whatever the heck they want and they couldn't care less about being dishonest, untrustworthy, and taking your civil rights.

We shall remember the Holy Inquisition used torture for the simply reason to speed up the process or deter other people.

I some cases it backfired (mental torture to St Joan of Arc), in some cases it was ubusive (torture of Savanarola and his associates) but moderate use kept a somewhat healthy Christian culture. So did the punishment of children, either et home and in the school. Abandoning the punishment resulted  serious bad effects.

The problem with the tortures of the Bush administration was not the act itself, but that it was not prevent something, but an unsuccessful trial to prove something what never happened: reason for the unjust war.

Wow. Sorry, I didn't mean to start this up again. Lesson learned: let sleeping threads lie.


Re: Should torture ever be allowed? - Historian - 09-02-2009

(09-02-2009, 03:16 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Wow. Sorry, I didn't mean to start this up again. Lesson learned: let sleeping threads lie.

So it was you.  :shame:

I was wondering why I was defending a post I made a while ago.