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Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - Printable Version

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Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - Borromeo - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:19 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:"obeying the moral law" CANNOT include practicing a false religion.

That's not correct.  Even an honestly erroneous conscience is binding under pain of sin.  The moral law commands that we obey it -- and failure to do so is a sin.  Now, the law cannot command and forbid the same thing -- and that is why there is a correlative right to do our moral duty. 

I must be mistaken. I'm not asking this sarcastically or cynically; I'm asking this seriously: how can a conscience be "erronious"? Where is this in Catholic theology? The conscience is directed by God to always seek Objective Truth. If a conscience is misled, it is the product of the rejection of grace.


Summa Theologica  I-II19,5


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - newschoolman - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:19 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:"obeying the moral law" CANNOT include practicing a false religion.

That's not correct.  Even an honestly erroneous conscience is binding under pain of sin.  The moral law commands that we obey it -- and failure to do so is a sin.  Now, the law cannot command and forbid the same thing -- and that is why there is a correlative right to do our moral duty. 

I must be mistaken. I'm not asking this sarcastically or cynically; I'm asking this seriously: how can a conscience be "erronious"? Where is this in Catholic theology? The conscience is directed by God to always seek Objective Truth. If a conscience is misled, it is the product of the rejection of grace.

Conscience must still rely on the intellect to make a correct judgement regarding the objectively true and good.  Here is a little something:


Quote:If a man is not obliged to follow an invincibly erroneous conscience; then he is not obliged to follow a correct conscience. Precisely because the error is invincible a man has no means of detecting it. Hence he cannot distinguish between a correct conscience and an invincibly erroneous conscience. Both are the same to him. Hence if he must obey in one case, he must obey in the other.
The same conclusion follows from a consideration of the will act.  The will act becomes good or bad inasmuch as it embraces an object, not as the object is in itself, but as the object is presented by the intellect as good or bad.  (Higgins, Man as Man, The Science and Art of Ethics, 1958, TAN Reprint 1992, p. 135)



Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - Borromeo - 06-04-2009

http://books.google.com/books?id=IzqDiPALzKEC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=st+thomas+aquinas+duty+to+follow+conscience&source=bl&ots=6DltsOPTVb&sig=W4vE7OxnD8bQPzvDulENjNhvpN0&hl=en&ei=n4IoSqz5EZXMMrT0-IcF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA246,M1


That might help too. 


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - INPEFESS - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:33 PM)Borromeo Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:19 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:"obeying the moral law" CANNOT include practicing a false religion.

That's not correct.  Even an honestly erroneous conscience is binding under pain of sin.  The moral law commands that we obey it -- and failure to do so is a sin.  Now, the law cannot command and forbid the same thing -- and that is why there is a correlative right to do our moral duty. 

I must be mistaken. I'm not asking this sarcastically or cynically; I'm asking this seriously: how can a conscience be "erronious"? Where is this in Catholic theology? The conscience is directed by God to always seek Objective Truth. If a conscience is misled, it is the product of the rejection of grace.


Summa Theologica  I-II19,5

Thank you. I'll read about this ... phenomenon.


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - INPEFESS - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:39 PM)Borromeo Wrote: http://books.google.com/books?id=IzqDiPALzKEC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=st+thomas+aquinas+duty+to+follow+conscience&source=bl&ots=6DltsOPTVb&sig=W4vE7OxnD8bQPzvDulENjNhvpN0&hl=en&ei=n4IoSqz5EZXMMrT0-IcF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA246,M1


That might help too. 

Thank you. I'll weigh the relativity.


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - INPEFESS - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:33 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:19 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:"obeying the moral law" CANNOT include practicing a false religion.

That's not correct.  Even an honestly erroneous conscience is binding under pain of sin.  The moral law commands that we obey it -- and failure to do so is a sin.  Now, the law cannot command and forbid the same thing -- and that is why there is a correlative right to do our moral duty. 

I must be mistaken. I'm not asking this sarcastically or cynically; I'm asking this seriously: how can a conscience be "erronious"? Where is this in Catholic theology? The conscience is directed by God to always seek Objective Truth. If a conscience is misled, it is the product of the rejection of grace.

Conscience must still rely on the intellect to make a correct judgement regarding the objectively true and good.  Here is a little something:


Quote:If a man is not obliged to follow an invincibly erroneous conscience; then he is not obliged to follow a correct conscience. Precisely because the error is invincible a man has no means of detecting it. Hence he cannot distinguish between a correct conscience and an invincibly erroneous conscience. Both are the same to him. Hence if he must obey in one case, he must obey in the other.
The same conclusion follows from a consideration of the will act.  The will act becomes good or bad inasmuch as it embraces an object, not as the object is in itself, but as the object is presented by the intellect as good or bad.  (Higgins, Man as Man, The Science and Art of Ethics, 1958, TAN Reprint 1992, p. 135)

Thank you, too.

Edit: I don't claim to be the author of Truth, so maybe I can learn something here.


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - lamentabili sane - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:19 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:"obeying the moral law" CANNOT include practicing a false religion.

That's not correct.  Even an honestly erroneous conscience is binding under pain of sin.  The moral law commands that we obey it -- and failure to do so is a sin.  Now, the law cannot command and forbid the same thing -- and that is why there is a correlative right to do our moral duty. 

I must be mistaken. I'm not asking this sarcastically or cynically; I'm asking this seriously: how can a conscience be "erronious"? Where is this in Catholic theology? The conscience is directed by God to always seek Objective Truth. If a conscience is misled, it is the product of the rejection of grace.

"Pius XII, Ci Riesce" Wrote:that which does not correspond to truth or to the norm of morality objectively has no right to exist, to be spread or to be activated.

What schoolman is trying to claim (I think) is that the norm of morality can be contrary to truth in the case of a man who has an improperly formed conscience. What he fails to consider is that all men are bound by divine law to enter the Catholic Church.




Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - INPEFESS - 06-04-2009

(06-04-2009, 10:43 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(06-04-2009, 10:19 PM)newschoolman Wrote:
Quote:"obeying the moral law" CANNOT include practicing a false religion.

That's not correct.  Even an honestly erroneous conscience is binding under pain of sin.  The moral law commands that we obey it -- and failure to do so is a sin.  Now, the law cannot command and forbid the same thing -- and that is why there is a correlative right to do our moral duty. 

I must be mistaken. I'm not asking this sarcastically or cynically; I'm asking this seriously: how can a conscience be "erronious"? Where is this in Catholic theology? The conscience is directed by God to always seek Objective Truth. If a conscience is misled, it is the product of the rejection of grace.

"Pius XII, Ci Riesce" Wrote:that which does not correspond to truth or to the norm of morality objectively has no right to exist, to be spread or to be activated.

What schoolman is trying to claim (I think) is that the norm of morality can be contrary to truth in the case of a man who has an improperly formed conscience. What he fails to consider is that all men are bound by divine law to enter the Catholic Church.

Ah, ok. Thank you. Yes, schoolman, Godfirst, Borromeo, and myself are on completely different pages of theology, then. I don't know how to explain myself any better than I already have.


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - INPEFESS - 06-04-2009

Ok, now I think I understand where the misunderstanding is. I'm approaching this from the role of grace; they are approaching this from the role of the intellect. No? Compliance with grace is superior to compliance with the intellect, correct? Can we at least agree on that?

*sigh*


Re: Bishop Sanborn responds to the "rupture theology" article - Borromeo - 06-04-2009

LS

The link I gave to INPEFESS makes your point as well.  I suggest reading it. 

Give it up LS, you aint gonna win this one or any fight regarding Vatican II documents.  They have been thoroughly "vetted" by better theologians than you, me, newschoolman, Quis...How about this?  Instead of obsessing with what is WRONG with the Catholic Church why not try possessing what is RIGHT about it?  Live the Faith LS, don't argue it.