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What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - Printable Version

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Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - flannerywannabe - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 09:11 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I guess I first knew the "Spirit" was here to stay when we had to study Jesus Christ Super Star in high school religion class. Four semesters were devoted to "poor-old-Judas" and a flower-power Jesus and a Mary Magdalene who sang "I don't know how to love him." And when the school year was over, we didn't know how to love him either.

I had a theology professor who used Jesus Christ Superstar as a class quiz. We had to spot the four major heresies embodied in the film and explain why they were wrong.  ;D

I grew up in the eighties, so for me it was everywhere. I was an altar girl; we had the guitars and the hand-holding and the standing around the altar at the consecration (horrors, but at the time I thought it was quite a devout thing -- I'd never been taught any differently). For me Tradition was almost the same shocking and nearly scandalous discovery it must be for a convert from Protestantism.


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - DJR - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 09:42 PM)Psalm26 Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 09:11 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: The Council was called in the first place was because that "Spirit" was already haunting us.

I - Lisa

Matthew 16

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

Matthew 28

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.


The 'Spirit' guiding the Church is God Himself.  One must be careful of unfounded words.

Lisa's statement does not deny that the Spirit guiding the Church is God Himself.  The term "spirit of Vatican II" does not refer to the Holy Ghost.  It refers to a certain mindset regarding interpretation of the Vatican II documents and has been used by many Catholics, including the hierarchy, to excuse departures from the Catholic Faith.


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - SCG - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 09:42 PM)Psalm26 Wrote: The 'Spirit' guiding the Church is God Himself.  One must be careful of unfounded words.

I don't equate the "Spirit of Vatican II" with the Spirit of God. That's why I had "Spirit" in quotations. The "Spirit" I was referring to was the wind of change, which may or may not have been blown in by the Holy Spirit. Of course I believe that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error - thus the gates of hell will not prevail. And yes I believe the Holy Spirit protected the Second Vatican Council from teaching error. But that's not the same as saying I believe the Holy Spirit inspired the Council.

- Lisa


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - SCG - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 09:54 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: I had a theology professor who used Jesus Christ Superstar as a class quiz. We had to spot the four major heresies embodied in the film and explain why they were wrong.  ;D

Darn! I missed that class.  ;D


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - flannerywannabe - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 10:04 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 09:54 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: I had a theology professor who used Jesus Christ Superstar as a class quiz. We had to spot the four major heresies embodied in the film and explain why they were wrong.  ;D

Darn! I missed that class.  ;D

In case you are curious, one of them was Nestorianism. This was a Christology course, and now that I am going back through my notes, I find that it was not just a quiz -- it was our final exam!  :laughing:


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - SCG - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 10:20 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 10:04 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 09:54 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: I had a theology professor who used Jesus Christ Superstar as a class quiz. We had to spot the four major heresies embodied in the film and explain why they were wrong.  ;D

Darn! I missed that class.  ;D

In case you are curious, one of them was Nestorianism. This was a Christology course, and now that I am going back through my notes, I find that it was not just a quiz -- it was our final exam!  :laughing:

Yes, I am curious.  :laughing:  I confess I'm a little rusty on my heresies.. Isn't Nestorianism the belief that Christ was two distinct persons? Do you remember what the other three heresies were?

- Lisa


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - flannerywannabe - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 10:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 10:20 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 10:04 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 09:54 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: I had a theology professor who used Jesus Christ Superstar as a class quiz. We had to spot the four major heresies embodied in the film and explain why they were wrong.  ;D

Darn! I missed that class.  ;D

In case you are curious, one of them was Nestorianism. This was a Christology course, and now that I am going back through my notes, I find that it was not just a quiz -- it was our final exam!  :laughing:

Yes, I am curious.  :laughing:  I confess I'm a little rusty on my heresies.. Isn't Nestorianism the belief that Christ was two distinct persons? Do you remember what the other three heresies were?

- Lisa

I don't, which is why I was digging through my notes.  ;)  I must have chucked the final exam paper itself. Wish I hadn't, now. But yes, Nestorianism is the denial of the hypostatic union. The notion is that Christ's human personhood was somehow separate from His divinity, which was floating around somewhere separately also. I also don't recall what it is about the movie that presents Him this way. Anyway, I think it is also Arian because of how it presents His self-knowledge. Augh, I really wish I'd kept that paper...


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - moneil - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 09:42 PM)Psalm26 Wrote: Matthew 16

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Its OK, God is in charge of His Church.  It is my belief that Almighty God did not let the gates of hell prevail in Vat II.

God is in charge. +1 for that.


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - SCG - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 10:35 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 10:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 10:20 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 10:04 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 09:54 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: I had a theology professor who used Jesus Christ Superstar as a class quiz. We had to spot the four major heresies embodied in the film and explain why they were wrong.  ;D

Darn! I missed that class.  ;D

In case you are curious, one of them was Nestorianism. This was a Christology course, and now that I am going back through my notes, I find that it was not just a quiz -- it was our final exam!  :laughing:

Yes, I am curious.   :laughing:  I confess I'm a little rusty on my heresies.. Isn't Nestorianism the belief that Christ was two distinct persons? Do you remember what the other three heresies were?

- Lisa

I don't, which is why I was digging through my notes.  ;)  I must have chucked the final exam paper itself. Wish I hadn't, now. But yes, Nestorianism is the denial of the hypostatic union. The notion is that Christ's human personhood was somehow separate from His divinity, which was floating around somewhere separately also. I also don't recall what it is about the movie that presents Him this way. Anyway, I think it is also Arian because of how it presents His self-knowledge. Augh, I really wish I'd kept that paper...

The scene in the movie/play that might have presented Jesus as distinctly human was the scene in the Garden of Gethsemane where He argues with God the Father over His purpose, saying "I have changed, I'm not so sure as when we started.....alright! so I'll die! Just watch me die! Let them take me now before I change my mind." Hmm.. I don't remember that exchange in any of the Gospels.

Anyway, I always felt let down with the ending. It doesn't even imply a resurrection. The final instrumental titled simply John 3:16 was very beautiful as a piece of music. And I do stand in awe of the talents of Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice.

- Lisa


Re: What was your first encounter with the "Spirit of VCII"? - Sinner - 07-01-2009

(07-01-2009, 09:11 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: ........and a Mary Magdalene who sang "I don't know how to love him." And when the school year was over, we didn't know how to love him either.

- Lisa

That is so saddening. :(