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Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Printable Version

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Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - didishroom - 07-05-2009

Quote:Wrong.  You absolutely despise his most exemplary points.
Yes, I am so sorry, you know me better than myself. From now I'll just ask you what I'm thinking.  ::)
 


Quote:You presume it was dumb argument.  It was actually rock solid. Motherhood IS more precious and favored by God than professional tennis. If you think the contrary, you're nuts.   Communicating my thoughts on the faith and passing along information from the Church and great Churchmen is not contrary to my nature.
That motherhood is more precious to God than professional tennis was not the argument-you made it so, in order for you to "win" the argument. No one was saying tennis was better than motherhood. The argument is whether professional tennis is intrinsically immoral for women to participate in.

I guess it was only a matter of time before I got into this point by point bickering with you. You do this alot and follow the most bizarre of logic, including false dichotomies( either Motherhood is good or professional tennis is bad)


Quote:No. He's doing that and more.  You've ignored the larger point and you agree with a tangential point.  That the female players are there to show off their bodies as part of the packaging and pornification of the culture.
That's not "why" the women are there. Unfortunately it is something that is common in almost all aspects of our culture. When dressing formally men are covered up to their necks while woman have the freedom to wear sleeveless, strapless and/or backless dresses. But that doesn't mean women should not ever dress formally. The abuse of modesty of female Tennis Players does not make professional Tennis for women immoral.


Quote:No. Challenging his theory would involve making a challenging argument.  You instead created a strawman and somehow think ridicule is a coherent debating tool.
You are such a hypocrite. You do the very same thing you accuse me of doing. 



Quote:It's not, but even if that were true.  All female accomplishments pale in comparison to Motherhood.  The greatest event ever accomplished by a human is the carrying of God Himself in the womb.  
As Chesterton said, "How can it be a large career to tell other people's children about the Rule of Three, and a small career to tell one's own children about the universe? How can it be broad to be the same thing to everyone, and narrow to be everything to someone? No; a woman's function is laborious, but because it is gigantic, not because it is minute I will pity Mrs. Jones for the hugeness of her task; I will never pity her for its smallness." --the Emancipation of Domesticity.
Carrying a child in a womb is NOT an accomplishment, no more than digesting food or carrying oxygen in your bloodstream is an accomplishment. Raising a child is an accomplishment....however no one is saying that Motherhood isn't. The problem is you thinking that ALL women are to be mothers and if they aren't already a mother(regardless of whether or not they are married) and are playing professional tennis, they are committing sin.



Quote:No. Again, you want to avoid making the proper distinction between "getting an education" and "going to University" which Bishop Williamson says is not a true University but rather a cesspool situation in which no boy nor girl should go to.
I don't want to an argument about college again but you are wrong. He specifically said "college is for ideas and girls are not about ideas" and scoffed at the idea of women taking part in Plato's dialogues, as if they were idiots or something(he must have forgotten that medieval female religious studied the Classics). He also gave the a simialr lame excuse like you did: "The virgin Mary didn't go to college why should any girl go?" 



Quote:If you want to criticize Bishop Williamson's position, you have to get it right.  Not superimpose your own spin on what he actually states.   Argue with his argument, not with what you want his argument to be.
Tell me what I got wrong on this particular issue. He blames women in professional sports for the birth decline in Europe. He does not simply condemn the abuses of women in such a profession but women being in the profession itself.  



Quote:So, you want women to dress like men so they can do manly things
Pants are not exclusive to men, so when they wear said article clothing they cannot be accused of wearing men's clothing. And what constitutes a "manly" activity? Williamson actually listed hiking as an activity women shouldn't do.....unless it's teaching, sewing or cooking, everything to the Bishop, is "manly."



Quote:You certainly are infected by feminism.
And you are infected by Chauvinism-and I do not use that term lightly.  



Quote:
Quote:I do believe the best place of a mother(not necessarily a woman) is the home.
Why?  
For the caring of children which trumps any job.....unless in certain cases of financial necessity.



Quote:
Quote:In principle I am against working mothers. I do not support them being police officers, firefighters, or soldiers. I think it would be better if they didn't vote.  

What is the principal by which you are against these things?
Women are not physically strong enough, in general, to engage in such jobs where physical strength is as important as mental acumen(which many women possess). These are also jobs that often deal with life and death situations and the mixing of the sexes poses too great a threat when it comes to these situations. No dating policies do not stop peoples' feelings and will not prevent people from making poor decisions on say a rescue mission based on such feelings. Male soldiers are played tapes with women screaming in order to train them NOT to respond, as all soldiers are equal and men have a natural impulse to help women in trouble, which could compromise a mission with women combatants. There is again the physical problem. A man should not have his life placed in further jeopardy because his rescuer is a woman and cannot carry him out of a burning building as quickly and more safely as another man. The same goes for soldiers.


Quote:Again with the strawman argument.  What is ridiculous is your mischaracterization.  Fight that position all you want, but find someone who actually holds it and don't wrongly ascribe it to Bishop Wiliamson or people like me who understand what he, G.K. Chesterton, Cardinal Siri and a whole host of others understand.  
Then prove me wrong.


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - lamentabili sane - 07-05-2009

(07-04-2009, 05:51 PM)Anastasia Wrote: Yes, I think it's a fair comparison: it's the same game with the same basic rules, the same number of players, and the same equipment: the speed of the ball doesn't alter that. At what mile per hour does tennis stop being appropriate for women?

When it goes from a recreational activity to what you see today in the professional ranks. How's that for an answer. :) Are you saying because we cannot pinpoint exactly where in between these two ends the activity becomes inappropriate that we can't see the inappropriateness at all? This is a philosophical error, I believe.


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Gerard - 07-06-2009

(07-05-2009, 07:50 PM)didishroom Wrote: Yes, I am so sorry, you know me better than myself. From now I'll just ask you what I'm thinking.  ::)

Okay.  Just let me know when to begin. 

Quote:That motherhood is more precious to God than professional tennis was not the argument-you made it so, in order for you to "win" the argument. No one was saying tennis was better than motherhood. The argument is whether professional tennis is intrinsically immoral for women to participate in.

No. That is not the argument.  Professional tennis is merely the example of this continueing stream of gender blending. 

Quote:I guess it was only a matter of time before I got into this point by point bickering with you. You do this alot and follow the most bizarre of logic, including false dichotomies( either Motherhood is good or professional tennis is bad)

Since you create strawmen consistently , a point by point commentary is necessary to correct you.  You redefine the argument consistently when you don't have a solid premise to stand on. 
Just as now, you accuse me of creating a false dichotomy when I didn't.  I pointed out that one path is natural and the other is unnatural. 

False dillemas are used by you most frequently when you insist that Bishop Williamson must be trashing women because he doesn't advocate what you see as harmless or worse laudable. 
He must be against "smart women" because he is against subjecting them to the corrupt educational system.  He must be chastising them for "leaving the kitchen" because he believes their actions and career choices that are encouraged by the culture are destructive to their nature. 


Quote:That's not "why" the women are there.

No. Of course not.  It's just the marketing strategy used to falsely gin up attention in order to distract people from the actual crassness of the event itself.  Why they are there is ultimately for the genderless society. 

Quote:Unfortunately it is something that is common in almost all aspects of our culture.

"It" is the blurring of the genders, not immodesty that is the issue.  You seem to refuse that "it" and are solely concerned on the immodesty issue.  If you believe in modesty, you believe in differences between male and female, if you believe that, then you must believe in a masculine and feminine nature.  You want to ignore that, but you can't make the issue of modesty an issue of objective truth until you acknowledge the truth of the difference between male and female natures. 

Quote:When dressing formally men are covered up to their necks while woman have the freedom to wear sleeveless, strapless and/or backless dresses. But that doesn't mean women should not ever dress formally.

Why can't men have the freedom to wear sleeveless, strapless or backless? 

Quote:The abuse of modesty of female Tennis Players does not make professional Tennis for women immoral.

You don't get it.  The issue is not the abuse of modesty.  It is the anti-femininity of professional sports that makes it immoral.  Cover up Sharapova and have her play tennis just as much as before and the problem has not changed. 

Quote:
Quote:No. Challenging his theory would involve making a challenging argument.  You instead created a strawman and somehow think ridicule is a coherent debating tool.

You are such a hypocrite. You do the very same thing you accuse me of doing. 

No I don't.  I'm explaining Bishop Williamson's position.  Time and time again, the points stay the same.  Yet you refuse to acknowledge the distinctions he has laid out and that I have emphasized in direct contradiction to your false representations of his position. 

Quote:Carrying a child in a womb is NOT an accomplishment, no more than digesting food or carrying oxygen in your bloodstream is an accomplishment.

Oh......that is so wrong. 

Quote: Raising a child is an accomplishment....however no one is saying that Motherhood isn't.

You've created the false dichotomy here by stating that carrying a child is no accomplishment and that Motherhood is.  If it were no accomplishment to give birth, I guess we shouldn't call it "carrying a baby" or "bringing the baby to term" or "labor" or "delivery"  No.  There's no accomplishment in any of that.  My buddy's wife is in the hospital with a high risk pregnancy.  She's been going to the doctor's every day for tests for months.  This is after multiple miscarriages.  I guess he should tell her that she's not enduring any difficulties till the baby arrives.

Quote:The problem is you thinking that ALL women are to be mothers and if they aren't already a mother(regardless of whether or not they are married) and are playing professional tennis, they are committing sin.

STRAWMAN ALERT!  That is nothing like what I've stated. FALSE DICHOTOMY ALERT!  And just because some women are doing things that are against their natures does not mean that I think they should be mothers.  I've never said nor written anything like that. 

Quote:
Quote:No. Again, you want to avoid making the proper distinction between "getting an education" and "going to University" which Bishop Williamson says is not a true University but rather a cesspool situation in which no boy nor girl should go to.

I don't want to an argument about college again but you are wrong. He specifically said "college is for ideas and girls are not about ideas" and scoffed at the idea of women taking part in Plato's dialogues, as if they were idiots or something(he must have forgotten that medieval female religious studied the Classics).

No.  You read into it "as if they are idiots"  and you ignore the distinction that Bishop Williamson made right there on the letter.  And you seem to ignore that he's using the arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas to back his position.  The fact is women think differently than men.  Can we agree on that?  If not, then you need to prove men and women think in the same way.  He points out that the motivations are different between men and women also. And he didn't say women couldn't study the Dialogues of Plato.  He said it's hard to imagine a woman participating in the Dialogues.   
Williamson is the only person I know of who pointed out the feminine and maternal style of conveying wisdom that the three unwisely declared "doctoresses" of the Church use in their works. 

Quote: He also gave  a similar lame excuse like you did: "The virgin Mary didn't go to college why should any girl go?" 

That's not an excuse.  That's a valid question.  Prove that the modern university is such a panacea for women.  You present your position as if going to College is the be all and end all of life.  Some of the dumbest people I've met have some of the best educations. 

Quote:
Quote:If you want to criticize Bishop Williamson's position, you have to get it right.  Not superimpose your own spin on what he actually states.   Argue with his argument, not with what you want his argument to be.

Tell me what I got wrong on this particular issue.

See above but the essential point is here: 

"Tennis is then a gladiatorial sport in which a thundering service, powered drives to the baseline and vollies punched away are at a premium, making physical strength and stamina, a fighting spirit and the will to dominate all-important. These being male prerogatives, naturally the women do their best to imitate men, which may flatter macho pride, but do we men ever stop to think how we are de-naturing our womenfolk by admiring and encouraging them to gladiate?" 


Quote:He blames women in professional sports for the birth decline in Europe.

No. He blames men for not preventing the de-naturing of the women. 

Quote: He does not simply condemn the abuses of women in such a profession but women being in the profession itself.

Women in the profession IS the abuse.  I've stated this multiple times.  The sport on a professional level REQUIRES women to adopt and imitate masculine characteristics.  Just as the male cross dressing singer is forced by the task at hand to adopt feminine characteristics.  It is not the abuses in cross dressing  cabarets that makes the activity unnatural.  It is the activity itself. 

[Image: ssstrophyevent3253.jpg]



Quote:
Quote:So, you want women to dress like men so they can do manly things

Pants are not exclusive to men, so when they wear said article clothing they cannot be accused of wearing men's clothing.

No. They are doing their best imitation of wearing men's clothing at that point.  Women first started wearing pants when they had to do mens' work such as digging in coal mines. 

Quote: And what constitutes a "manly" activity? Williamson actually listed hiking as an activity women shouldn't do.....unless it's teaching, sewing or cooking, everything to the Bishop, is "manly."

Read Chesterton's "Emancipation of Domesticity" essay and you'll have a better grasp of what the bishop is talking about.  The world is chock full of things that women can do that are harmonious with the femininine nature.  One of those things is to not be competitive and to be broad-minded instead.  The man has to focus on one particular thing and master it.  The woman has to be flexible and be capable of doing a multitude of things in order to ensure the balance of the household or in a larger context the community.  I could hole myself up in a cave and study classical music or painting or build things but it would be a focused effort on one thing.  A woman engages in numerous activities that involve groups of people, they volunteer at hospitals, work for charities, sing in choirs, work in and enjoy community entertainments, decorate, garden, beautify things, they glue families together, heal wounded hearts, sympathize with the suffering.  Men CAN do all of these things also but women are naturally superior in all them.  I pointed out during the last go 'round that if you look on Amazon at Rachael Ray's cookbook writeup and Alton Brown's you can see the difference in the male and female emphasis.  Ray's book is about providing for families.  Brown's book is about conquering the recipe using proper tools, technique and organized know-how.   

Quote:You certainly are infected by feminism.
And you are infected by Chauvinism-and I do not use that term lightly.  

No. The problem with the liberal feminist mindset is that they see chauvenism when it's Chivalry and they see femininity as something to be despised and belittled. 

Quote:
Quote:I do believe the best place of a mother(not necessarily a woman) is the home.
Why?  

For the caring of children which trumps any job.....unless in certain cases of financial necessity. [/quote]

Why does the caring of children trump any job?  In general, can a man care for children as effectively as a woman?



Quote:
Quote:
Quote:In principle I am against working mothers. I do not support them being police officers, firefighters, or soldiers. I think it would be better if they didn't vote.  

What is the principal by which you are against these things?

Women are not physically strong enough, in general, to engage in such jobs where physical strength is as important as mental acumen(which many women possess).

These are also jobs that often deal with life and death situations and the mixing of the sexes poses too great a threat when it comes to these situations.

No dating policies do not stop peoples' feelings and will not prevent people from making poor decisions on say a rescue mission based on such feelings.

Male soldiers are played tapes with women screaming in order to train them NOT to respond, as all soldiers are equal and men have a natural impulse to help women in trouble, which could compromise a mission with women combatants.

There is again the physical problem. A man should not have his life placed in further jeopardy because his rescuer is a woman and cannot carry him out of a burning building as quickly and more safely as another man. The same goes for soldiers.

So you are saying that men need to do certain jobs and women are distractions from the men's focus either through their beauty or because of the man's nature to protect women?  And that man are naturally superior in these jobs that are outside the scope of the nurturing family unit?  You sound like Bishop Williamson and St. Thomas Aquinas. 


Quote:Again with the strawman argument.  What is ridiculous is your mischaracterization.  Fight that position all you want, but find someone who actually holds it and don't wrongly ascribe it to Bishop Wiliamson or people like me who understand what he, G.K. Chesterton, Cardinal Siri and a whole host of others understand.  
Then prove me wrong.
[/quote]

No burden shifting.  I'm defending Bishop Williamson's position.  You accuse the bishop of something, provide the proof of your accusation.  It seems like you selectively read his letters.




Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Scipio_a - 07-06-2009

You people sure do worry a lot about what women should and should not be doing.

As for the serving meals crap...you can serve a lot of meals the paycheck some players get, so that's not going to be an issue at the gates.  God probly likes a good game of ladies tennis as much as +Williamson does, seein as he sneaks out of his hiding place to go watch the girls.

DK has coind fuzzyphelia, we obviously have Willymania as well.  I know people that don't eduact their daughters because of this kook, and I like him!  But come on already, you don't have to hang on his every word, the guy has a screw loose, even if he is fun to listen to at times.

Didi (king of Willyphobia) is finally right about one and you people just keep piling on the stupid.

Frump is not feminine.  Activity is cool.  The Spartan women were known for their physiques.  You can't make a real warrior class and be nothing but a stay at home knitter.

And no I'm not going to back any of it up with scripture readings or lines from churcmen or saints.


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Texican - 07-06-2009

Hooah.


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - SCG - 07-06-2009

(07-06-2009, 12:45 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: You people sure do worry a lot about what women should and should not be doing.

As for the serving meals crap...you can serve a lot of meals the paycheck some players get, so that's not going to be an issue at the gates.  God probly likes a good game of ladies tennis as much as +Williamson does, seein as he sneaks out of his hiding place to go watch the girls.

DK has coind fuzzyphelia, we obviously have Willymania as well.  I know people that don't eduact their daughters because of this kook, and I like him!  But come on already, you don't have to hang on his every word, the guy has a screw loose, even if he is fun to listen to at times.

Didi (king of Willyphobia) is finally right about one and you people just keep piling on the stupid.

Frump is not feminen.  Activity is cool.  The Spartan women were known for their physiques.  You can't make a real warrior class and be nothing but a stay at home knitter.

And no I'm not going to back any of it up with scripture readings or lines from churcmen or saints.

I love it!  :)  And let’s not forget those women warriors of Roman, Celt, and Scandinavian history!


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Gerard - 07-06-2009

(07-06-2009, 12:45 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: You people sure do worry a lot about what women should and should not be doing.

No. Actually more time on these threads are spent worrying about what men should and should not be doing.

Quote:As for the serving meals crap...you can serve a lot of meals the paycheck some players get, so that's not going to be an issue at the gates.[/quotes]

Serving a meal is one thing, buying a meal is another. 

[quote]  God probly likes a good game of ladies tennis as much as +Williamson does, seein as he sneaks out of his hiding place to go watch the girls.

For an obviously drunk or high while posting person, you are probably pretty close to the truth on a couple points.  God probably does like a good game, provided the game is actually "good."  And Williamson does seem to be the person with his eyes open to what is around him.  Bishop Williamson sneaks out of his hiding place to go watch the girls?  How about a few pedophile jokes while you are at it?

Quote:DK has coind fuzzyphelia, we obviously have Willymania as well.

Don't forget false equivalency mania. 

Quote: I know people that don't eduact their daughters because of this kook, and I like him! 

You do not.  I can't believe someone wouldn't eduact their daughters.  Eduact is so important.

Quote:But come on already, you don't have to hang on his every word, the guy has a screw loose, even if he is fun to listen to at times.

Screw loose you.

Quote:Didi (king of Willyphobia) is finally right about one and you people just keep piling on the stupid.

And you've contributed such wisdom and clarity.  You'd think this was babbelfish.

Quote:Frump is not feminen.  Activity is cool.  The Spartan women were known for their physiques.  You can't make a real warrior class and be nothing but a stay at home knitter.

And no I'm not going to back any of it up with scripture readings or lines from churcmen or saints.

Hah!  Is it booze or the wacky weed that has inspired this river of wisdom and spelling errors?  Spartan women? 

Bunch of incomplete phrases....spelling still good...Spartan chicks...Heads shaved...subject to abduction....
....multiple partners, ....children alienated from them....Crusaders...true warriors...more than Spartans...fought for God...not glory....chivalrous...not thugs like Spartans... 




Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Scipio_a - 07-06-2009

Yeah, I'm high because I dotn watse my time spellchkn posts to the inet...


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Scipio_a - 07-06-2009

(07-06-2009, 01:37 AM)Gerard Wrote:
(07-06-2009, 12:45 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: You people sure do worry a lot about what women should and should not be doing.

No. Actually more time on these threads are spent worrying about what men should and should not be doing.

Quote:As for the serving meals crap...you can serve a lot of meals the paycheck some players get, so that's not going to be an issue at the gates.[/quotes]

Serving a meal is one thing, buying a meal is another.   

Quote:  God probly likes a good game of ladies tennis as much as +Williamson does, seein as he sneaks out of his hiding place to go watch the girls.

For an obviously drunk or high while posting person, you are probably pretty close to the truth on a couple points.  God probably does like a good game, provided the game is actually "good."  And Williamson does seem to be the person with his eyes open to what is around him.  Bishop Williamson sneaks out of his hiding place to go watch the girls?  How about a few pedophile jokes while you are at it?

Quote:DK has coind fuzzyphelia, we obviously have Willymania as well.

Don't forget false equivalency mania. 

Quote: I know people that don't eduact their daughters because of this kook, and I like him! 

You do not.  I can't believe someone wouldn't eduact their daughters.  Eduact is so important.

Quote:But come on already, you don't have to hang on his every word, the guy has a screw loose, even if he is fun to listen to at times.

Screw loose you.

Quote:Didi (king of Willyphobia) is finally right about one and you people just keep piling on the stupid.

And you've contributed such wisdom and clarity.  You'd think this was babbelfish.

Quote:Frump is not feminen.  Activity is cool.  The Spartan women were known for their physiques.  You can't make a real warrior class and be nothing but a stay at home knitter.

And no I'm not going to back any of it up with scripture readings or lines from churcmen or saints.

Hah!  Is it booze or the wacky weed that has inspired this river of wisdom and spelling errors?  Spartan women? 

Bunch of incomplete phrases....spelling still good...Spartan chicks...Heads shaved...subject to abduction....
....multiple partners, ....children alienated from them....Crusaders...true warriors...more than Spartans...fought for God...not glory....chivalrous...not thugs like Spartans... 

You really have trouble with women, don't you!


Re: Bp W column, 7.4.09 - Scipio_a - 07-06-2009

OK, this just in...I went back and looked at Gerard's posts from the past.  He's a Willymaniac and a postpulleraparter...no need to take anything he has to say here seriously, he will defend the indefensible until he trads out.