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Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - nsper7 - 07-22-2009

Even though the parish I attend is a fairly liberal one and the Pastor is almost sickeningly theologically liberal sometimes (threw me of the Confessional for going to Confession too much), he does run a good Mass and, as best I can tell, he usually stays within the Rubrics for the OF/NO Mass so I have been fortunate about not experiencing liturgical abuse in the Mass. Anyway, this past week I was volunteering with the Priests of the Sacred Heart, a religious order I had been considering becoming a Priest through. Anyway, I can now say I have experienced major liturgical abuse in the Mass:

1) One of the Priests wanted everyone to recite the Act of Consecration along with him, something about how we all should be a part or something (I cringed and, of course, did not recite the Act of Consecration)
2) In the daily Masses, where there was a small group, we all crowded the Altar during the Liturgy of the Eucharist (this did not bother me as much, although I think it is an abuse....correct me if I am wrong)
3) The Daily Masses were held in the morning right after (as in no hour long fast possible) breakfast. Everyone there, except for me, received Communion (I received on one day because I did not eat until after Mass, grabbing a quick bit of food on the way out to the work sites, so I did not violate the fast). Now, I think some of those people had probably eaten before the Mass and the Priest NEVER mentioned the one-hour fast before receiving Communion. When I asked the Priest about this issue, he almost seemed exasperated and said, "Well, you know what the Church teaches," which I do, but apparently a lot of the others did not and, when I brought the issue up to a friend of mine there, he gave some excuse about since we are going to work and need nourishment, we can eat and it is okay or something.
4) They used an odd Eucharistic Liturgy where it involved responsorial parts to it (I am not sure if that was an abuse or like a made-up liturgy or something since even the Missalettes acknowledge there are other version besides I, II, III, IV and the two Penitential liturgies).

Those were the abuses, but several other things irritated me:

1) The homilies all seemed too liberal sappy shmere (although I am kind of used to that)
2) One of the new parishes looked like it could have been some Protestant worship center (in fairness, this is a stylistic issue since the Altar was in the right place, but I just wonder why do we emulate this modern stuff when we have such beautiful historical examples)
3) Even in the larger services, hardly anyone Received on the Tongue (in our small Daily Masses, I was the only who did so; of course, usually I was not receiving). Now, this is not a liturgical abuse since it is perfectly all right to Receive in the Hand (I prefer receiving the Host on the tongue), but it seems like a pretty good gauge of how Traditional or Liberal/Progressive/Modern the parish/order is.
4) The Priests NEVER wore their clerical garb (i.e. collar) outside of Mass. The reason they gave when I asked was because they were afraid they could get harassed since they were in Bible Belt country and they did not want to be disturbed and stuff (is this okay or not? I thought a Priest should wear their clerical clothing unless they are asleep, in water or performing manual labor).

Any comments on my observations?


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - DrBombay - 07-22-2009

I'd say you can cross the Priests of the Sacred Heart off your list of possible vocation choices.  Just sayin.


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - nsper7 - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 08:58 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I'd say you can cross the Priests of the Sacred Heart off your list of possible vocation choices.  Just sayin.

Yes, I already did that.

Currently, the groups I am thinking of are ICKSP, the Canons-Regular of St. John Cantius, the Xaverian Missionaries (I do not know how Traditional or lack thereof they are) and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement (again, I do not know how Traditional they are).


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - DrBombay - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 09:01 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 08:58 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I'd say you can cross the Priests of the Sacred Heart off your list of possible vocation choices.  Just sayin.

Yes, I already did that.

Currently, the groups I am thinking of are ICKSP, the Canons-Regular of St. John Cantius, the Xaverian Missionaries (I do not know how Traditional or lack thereof they are) and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement (again, I do not know how Traditional they are).

Hmmmm.  You'll be pretty comfortable with the first two.  The other two I don't know anything about.  There might be something to say about being the lone Traditionalist in a liberal order.  Maybe you'd be in the vanguard of returning the order to Tradition; perhaps that's what God is calling you to do.  Of course, that would take a great deal of courage and perseverance and the ability to weather a lot of storms on the way to the priesthood and beyond.  Short of direct Divine Intervention, how are some of these orders going to be saved if young men aren't willing to take a chance?

Obviously it's easy for me to say such things since I'm not putting myself in harm's way but it's something to think and pray about anyway.  :tiphat:


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - nsper7 - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 09:15 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 09:01 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 08:58 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I'd say you can cross the Priests of the Sacred Heart off your list of possible vocation choices.  Just sayin.

Yes, I already did that.

Currently, the groups I am thinking of are ICKSP, the Canons-Regular of St. John Cantius, the Xaverian Missionaries (I do not know how Traditional or lack thereof they are) and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement (again, I do not know how Traditional they are).

Hmmmm.  You'll be pretty comfortable with the first two.  The other two I don't know anything about.  There might be something to say about being the lone Traditionalist in a liberal order.  Maybe you'd be in the vanguard of returning the order to Tradition; perhaps that's what God is calling you to do.  Of course, that would take a great deal of courage and perseverance and the ability to weather a lot of storms on the way to the priesthood and beyond.  Short of direct Divine Intervention, how are some of these orders going to be saved if young men aren't willing to take a chance?

Obviously it's easy for me to say such things since I'm not putting myself in harm's way but it's something to think and pray about anyway.  :tiphat:

But if they deem you too Traditional, some groups may not let you get ordained through them. For example, at the end of the week, the Priest from the Priests of the Sacred Heart told me that he felt I would not in with the order.


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - DrBombay - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 09:48 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 09:15 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 09:01 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 08:58 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I'd say you can cross the Priests of the Sacred Heart off your list of possible vocation choices.  Just sayin.

Yes, I already did that.

Currently, the groups I am thinking of are ICKSP, the Canons-Regular of St. John Cantius, the Xaverian Missionaries (I do not know how Traditional or lack thereof they are) and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement (again, I do not know how Traditional they are).

Hmmmm.  You'll be pretty comfortable with the first two.  The other two I don't know anything about.  There might be something to say about being the lone Traditionalist in a liberal order.  Maybe you'd be in the vanguard of returning the order to Tradition; perhaps that's what God is calling you to do.  Of course, that would take a great deal of courage and perseverance and the ability to weather a lot of storms on the way to the priesthood and beyond.  Short of direct Divine Intervention, how are some of these orders going to be saved if young men aren't willing to take a chance?

Obviously it's easy for me to say such things since I'm not putting myself in harm's way but it's something to think and pray about anyway.  :tiphat:

But if they deem you too Traditional, some groups may not let you get ordained through them. For example, at the end of the week, the Priest from the Priests of the Sacred Heart told me that he felt I would not in with the order.

Yes, and that's why you must be as wise as serpents and simple as doves, as Our Lord instructed us.  Just keep your head down and get ordained.  Once you're ordained, they can't un-ordain you.  It's an indelible mark after all.  Need I say more?


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - libby - 07-22-2009

plus one DrBombay - listen to him, nsper.


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - nsper7 - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 09:59 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 09:48 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 09:15 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 09:01 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(07-22-2009, 08:58 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I'd say you can cross the Priests of the Sacred Heart off your list of possible vocation choices.  Just sayin.

Yes, I already did that.

Currently, the groups I am thinking of are ICKSP, the Canons-Regular of St. John Cantius, the Xaverian Missionaries (I do not know how Traditional or lack thereof they are) and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement (again, I do not know how Traditional they are).

Hmmmm.  You'll be pretty comfortable with the first two.  The other two I don't know anything about.  There might be something to say about being the lone Traditionalist in a liberal order.  Maybe you'd be in the vanguard of returning the order to Tradition; perhaps that's what God is calling you to do.  Of course, that would take a great deal of courage and perseverance and the ability to weather a lot of storms on the way to the priesthood and beyond.  Short of direct Divine Intervention, how are some of these orders going to be saved if young men aren't willing to take a chance?

Obviously it's easy for me to say such things since I'm not putting myself in harm's way but it's something to think and pray about anyway.  :tiphat:

But if they deem you too Traditional, some groups may not let you get ordained through them. For example, at the end of the week, the Priest from the Priests of the Sacred Heart told me that he felt I would not in with the order.

Yes, and that's why you must be as wise as serpents and simple as doves, as Our Lord instructed us.  Just keep your head down and get ordained.  Once you're ordained, they can't un-ordain you.  It's an indelible mark after all.  Need I say more?

So, are you saying I should disingenuous until I am ordained? Just do what the order is doing, even if I know it goes against the rubrics or Catholic doctrine?


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - The_Harlequin_King - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 09:01 PM)nsper7 Wrote: and the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement (again, I do not know how Traditional they are).

I don't know, either. Liturgically speaking, the picture I saw of Mass on their website looks pretty standard NO. I have a big interest in the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement, though, since my parish, aptly named Our Lady of the Atonement, certainly drew a large amount of inspiration from Father Paul of Graymoor and his conversion from Anglicanism to Catholicism. In fact, Father Paul's portrait hangs in our narthex.


Re: Experienced Liturgical Abuse This Past Week - DrBombay - 07-22-2009

(07-22-2009, 10:27 PM)nsper7 Wrote: So, are you saying I should disingenuous until I am ordained? Just do what the order is doing, even if I know it goes against the rubrics or Catholic doctrine?

Disingenuous?  Such an ugly term.  I doubt that's what Our Lord was counseling. 

Pick your battles.  It's unlikely you will be able to change the culture of an order as a lowly novice and a loud mouthed know-it-all novice will get bounced quicker than you can say reactionary. 

Or you can go with the traddies and not worry about doctrinal or rubrical deviations.  Naturally, you'd have other things to worry about, but Christ told us to take up our cross now didn't he?