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Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-10-2009

And for PeterII. Here's what St. Agustine says on Cornelius.


St. Augustine who, in his treatise On Baptism: Against the Donatists, asks us “not to depreciate a man’s righteousness should it begin to exist before he joined the Church, as the righteouness of Cornelius began to exist before he was in the Christian community,” also says in the same sentence that this righteouness “was not thought worthless, or the angel would not have said to him, ‘Thy alms have been accepted and thy prayers have been heard;’ nor did it yet suffice for his gaining the kingdom of Heaven, or he would not have been told to send for Peter, “ 76 in order to be baptized by him.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - lamentabili sane - 08-10-2009

(08-09-2009, 07:39 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: The Catechism of the Council of Trent teaches Baptism of Desire.

"Pope Pius X, ACERBO NIMIS" Wrote:ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON TEACHING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE

APRIL 15, 1905

24. VI. Since it is a fact that in these days adults need instruction no less than the young, all pastors and those having the care of souls shall explain the Catechism to the people in a plain and simple style adapted to the intelligence of their hearers. This shall be carried out on all holy days of obligation, at such time as is most convenient for the people, but not during the same hour when the children are instructed, and this instruction must be in addition to the usual homily on the Gospel which is delivered at the parochial Mass on Sundays and holy days. The catechetical instruction shall be based on the Catechism of the Council of Trent; and the matter is to be divided in such a way that in the space of four or five years, treatment will be given to the Apostles' Creed, the Sacraments, the Ten Commandments, the Lord's Prayer and the Precepts of the Church.

25. Venerable Brethren, We decree and command this by virtue of Our Apostolic Authority. It now rests with you to put it into prompt and complete execution in your respective dioceses, and by the power of your authority to see to it that these prescriptions of Ours be not neglected or, what amounts to the same thing, that they be not carried out carelessly or superficially. That this may be avoided, you must exhort and urge your pastors not to impart these instructions without having first prepared themselves in the work. Then they will not merely speak words of human wisdom, but "in simplicity and godly sincerity,"[24] imitating the example of Jesus Christ, Who, though He revealed "things hidden since the foundation of the world,"[25] yet spoke "all . . . things to the crowds in parables, and without parables . . . did not speak to them."[26] We know that the Apostles, who were taught by the Lord, did the same; for of them Pope Saint Gregory wrote: "They took supreme care to preach to the uninstructed simple truths easy to understand, not things deep and difficult."[27] In matters of religion, the majority of men in our times must be considered uninstructed.

"The catechetical instruction shall be based on the Catechism of the Council of Trent; and the matter is to be divided in such a way that in the space of four or five years, treatment will be given to the Apostles' Creed, the Sacraments, the Ten Commandments, the Lord's Prayer and the Precepts of the Church."

"We decree and command this by virtue of Our Apostolic Authority."


This is an infallible pronouncement. This is why the really crass "feeneyites" say that Pope St. Pius X was a heretic.

What do you say "didishroom"?


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-10-2009

Quote:This is an infallible pronouncement. This is why the really crass "feeneyites" say that Pope St. Pius X was a heretic.

What do you say "didishroom"?


This is not an infallible pronouncement. It is a declaration on how catechesis should be carried out. It is a discipline. It is not a definition or pronouncement on Faith and Morals.

I also fail to see what is the point of posting. You did not make it clear.

And whenever have Fr. Feeney or the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or the apostolate of St. Benedict Center ever make such an accusation? The only one here who is crass is ypou for making such an inflammatory accusations without any source to back yourself up!


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - lamentabili sane - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 10:57 AM)didishroom Wrote:
Quote:This is an infallible pronouncement. This is why the really crass "feeneyites" say that Pope St. Pius X was a heretic.

What do you say "didishroom"?


This is not an infallible pronouncement. It is a declaration on how catechesis should be carried out. It is a discipline. It is not a definition or pronouncement on Faith and Morals.

I also fail to see what is the point of posting. You did not make it clear.

And whenever have Fr. Feeney or the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or the apostolate of St. Benedict Center ever make such an accusation? The only one here who is crass is ypou for making such an inflammatory accusations without any source to back yourself up!

And here we have the final argument and hiding place for a "feeneyite"... "That's not infallible."


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-10-2009

Address the points or keep your snide and uncharitable comments to yourself.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - bonniem - 08-10-2009

I don't know much about any of this - but I see you guys offer a lot of info - thanks to all for that.

As for me, I always thought "no catholic" meant "no heaven".


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-10-2009

You are correct on your last statment.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - bonniem - 08-10-2009

I'm still learning and have no real opinion about some of the things that seems to say first no salvation, then yes salvation for non catholics? Am I reading that right? If so, I will stick to "no" and live with letting others face the judge they don't know.



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - lamentabili sane - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 11:37 AM)didishroom Wrote: Address the points or keep your snide and uncharitable comments to yourself.

I have addressed the points. You DO NOT accept the clear teaching of St. Alphonsus, do you? Why should Catholics reject THIS Doctor of the Church, on THIS issue, and instead listen to YOU and your unauthorised theological musings?

"Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori: Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7." Wrote:Concerning Baptism

Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water ["fluminis"], of desire ["flaminis" = wind] and of blood.

We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".

Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality ["non ita stricte"] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from Baptism of blood – translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.

It is clear that martyrdom is not a sacrament, because it is not an action instituted by Christ, and for the same reason neither was the Baptism of John a sacrament: it did not sanctify a man, but only prepared him for the coming of Christ.




Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-10-2009

Quote:I have addressed the points. You DO NOT accept the clear teaching of St. Alphonsus, do you? Why should Catholics reject THIS Doctor of the Church, on THIS issue, and instead listen to YOU and your unauthorised theological musings?

What are you talking about? Why can't we have a calm and honest discussion? Why do you have to keep insulting and ask these confusing questions as if to trap me?

With no explanation as to the point you posted St. Pius X's decree on how catechesis is to be taught and then wrongly delcared it to be an infallible statement and then made a completely untrue and unfounded and uncharitable statement accusing Fr. Feeney's followers of calling St. Pius X a heretic! (You still have not shown where they have ever published such a remark.)

You refused to apologize for your injurous and libelous statement and instead replied with another snide comment.

I told you to stop these juvenile tactics at which you replied" that you already adressed these points". What points?! You're just making snarky remarks like a child! And then you just throw in a quote by St. Alphonsus Ligouri as if that should just settle things and I should just shut up!

What is with these junior politics? Why can't we just discuss the hand without ad hominum attacks?!

I am not going to continue talking with you at all unless you apologize for libel and childish manner...