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Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - DarkKnight - 08-10-2009

Frankly, for anyone without access to the Confessional and all of the Deposits of Grace and plenary indulgences available, I don't see a snowball's chance in hell to achieve heaven. The very best they can possibly hope for is a powerful amount of time in Purgatory, which they'll mistake for hell in any event.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - lamentabili sane - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 03:00 PM)didishroom Wrote:
Quote:I have addressed the points. You DO NOT accept the clear teaching of St. Alphonsus, do you? Why should Catholics reject THIS Doctor of the Church, on THIS issue, and instead listen to YOU and your unauthorised theological musings?

What are you talking about? Why can't we have a calm and honest discussion? Why do you have to keep insulting and ask these confusing questions as if to trap me?

With no explanation as to the point you posted St. Pius X's decree on how catechesis is to be taught and then wrongly delcared it to be an infallible statement and then made a completely untrue and unfounded and uncharitable statement accusing Fr. Feeney's followers of calling St. Pius X a heretic! (You still have not shown where they have ever published such a remark.)

You refused to apologize for your injurous and libelous statement and instead replied with another snide comment.

I told you to stop these juvenile tactics at which you replied" that you already adressed these points". What points?! You're just making snarky remarks like a child! And then you just throw in a quote by St. Alphonsus Ligouri as if that should just settle things and I should just shut up!

What is with these junior politics? Why can't we just discuss the hand without ad hominum attacks?!

I am not going to continue talking with you at all unless you apologize for libel and childish manner...

"didishroom" Wrote:Why can't we have a calm and honest discussion?

Yes, why can't we?



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Historian - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 03:04 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: Frankly, for anyone without access to the Confessional and all of the Deposits of Grace and plenary indulgences available, I don't see a snowball's chance in hell to achieve heaven. The very best they can possibly hope for is a powerful amount of time in Purgatory, which they'll mistake for hell in any event.

Luke 12:46-48 Wrote:The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers. And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

Also, indulgences are only obtainable by people in a state of grace, so an indulgence doesn't help one really get to heaven, except perhaps in helping that person handle what is to come in life better.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - bonniem - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 03:04 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: Frankly, for anyone without access to the Confessional and all of the Deposits of Grace and plenary indulgences available, I don't see a snowball's chance in hell to achieve heaven. The very best they can possibly hope for is a powerful amount of time in Purgatory, which they'll mistake for hell in any event.

Wow! that says what I believe too. If I gotta go to confession, receive communion and the other sacramnets and do all the things only catholics do and don't know if I will make it, how the heck does anyone else just slip in like nothing?


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - PeterII - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 10:03 AM)didishroom Wrote: And for PeterII. Here's what St. Agustine says on Cornelius.


St. Augustine who, in his treatise On Baptism: Against the Donatists, asks us “not to depreciate a man’s righteousness should it begin to exist before he joined the Church, as the righteouness of Cornelius began to exist before he was in the Christian community,” also says in the same sentence that this righteouness “was not thought worthless, or the angel would not have said to him, ‘Thy alms have been accepted and thy prayers have been heard;’ nor did it yet suffice for his gaining the kingdom of Heaven, or he would not have been told to send for Peter, “ 76 in order to be baptized by him.

Where did you get the above quote from?  That is not St. Augustine speaking, that is someone incorrectly commenting on what Augustine said.  St. Augustine specifically said:

On Baptism, Book 4, Chapter 24 Wrote:As therefore in Abraham the justification of faith came first, and circumcision was added afterwards as the seal of faith; so in Cornelius the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of regeneration was added afterwards in the laver of baptism.




Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - lamentabili sane - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 04:16 PM)bonniem Wrote:
(08-10-2009, 03:04 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: Frankly, for anyone without access to the Confessional and all of the Deposits of Grace and plenary indulgences available, I don't see a snowball's chance in hell to achieve heaven. The very best they can possibly hope for is a powerful amount of time in Purgatory, which they'll mistake for hell in any event.

Wow! that says what I believe too. If I gotta go to confession, receive communion and the other sacramnets and do all the things only catholics do and don't know if I will make it, how the heck does anyone else just slip in like nothing?

Read Pope Pius IX in Singulari Quadam.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9singul.htm

"Monsignor Fenton" Wrote:As the Singulari Quadam reminds us quite forcibly, it remains true that no one can judge accurately about the extent and the location of the truly invincible ignorance with reference to the true Church of Christ in this world. Thus, to state the matter concretely, it is quite impossible for us to say whether or not some individual Protestant, living in a region where the Catholic Church flourishes, is invincibly ignorant of that Church by reason of his upbringing and his prejudices. As a matter of fact, such a judgment does not fall within our competence as preachers of Catholic truth. Actually we are and we remain the ambassadors of Christ, charged with the entirety of that message, which Jesus Christ teaches within our communion. The truth that the Catholic Church is actually requisite for eternal salvation forms an integral part of that message. The truth about the culpability or the lack of it in any outsider’s ignorance of the true Church is definitely not a part of the teaching with which we are entrusted. Consequently, as Pope Pius IX warns us, we are only abusing our commission when we attempt to form a judgment on such matters.

Also, this might assist:

"Matthew 20:2" Wrote:1 The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle. 4 And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just. 5 And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.

6 But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle? 7 They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard. 8 And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. 9 When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny.

11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, 12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. 13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? 14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. 15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-10-2009

Quote: As therefore in Abraham the justification of faith came first, and circumcision was added afterwards as the seal of faith; so in Cornelius  the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of regeneration was added afterwards in the laver of baptism.


Proof that Augustine recognized that Cornelius was regenerated by baptism.  Thanks for the quote.

Quote: What are you talking about? Why can't we have a calm and honest discussion? Why do you have to keep insulting and ask these confusing questions as if to trap me?

It's called an ad hominem attack, which he has to resort to because you are winning.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - lamentabili sane - 08-10-2009

(08-10-2009, 07:12 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: As therefore in Abraham the justification of faith came first, and circumcision was added afterwards as the seal of faith; so in Cornelius  the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of regeneration was added afterwards in the laver of baptism.


Proof that Augustine recognized that Cornelius was regenerated by baptism.  Thanks for the quote.

Actually, it says that he was sanctified. He was justified. He had the supernatural virtues of Faith and Charity before sacramental Baptism.

"James02" Wrote:
Quote: What are you talking about? Why can't we have a calm and honest discussion? Why do you have to keep insulting and ask these confusing questions as if to trap me?

It's called an ad hominem attack, which he has to resort to because you are winning.

It's a fact. Didishroom cannot even have a theological opinion versus St. Alphonsus.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-11-2009

Quote: Actually, it says that he was sanctified. He was justified. He had the supernatural virtues of Faith and Charity before sacramental Baptism.

Where?  Justified?  That is precise language.  Please supply the quote.




Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - ggreg - 09-01-2009

If I were God I'd send about 2 in 5 to Hell based on my experience of people.  They seem to me like they deseve it.  Some people I know are real scumbags who appear to me to be every bit as bad as the baddies in the Gospel.  They really express a contempt (below hatred) for morality or goodness or kindness and behave like wild animals.  I can't see how they would be happy in Heaven knowing what I know of them.

I think I'd find enough goodness in the rest to scrape them into Purgatory.

The bible is full of numbers.  God is clearly in love with numbers.  I find it hard to see how God will have "won" unless at the end of this experiment lasting since Adam and Eve, He has got the majority of souls into Heaven.  The alternative seems incredibly wasteful.

Remember people are born into this world and ensouled without any choice in the matter.  If the average Joe Schmo has a 99% chance of going to Hell (and I've heard SSPX priests suggest this figure in sermons at Sunday Mass), then it would seem a lot more just to offer annihilation as an option rather than only eternal torment.  I've never come first at anything significant in my life.  Why would I be able to make the top 1%?