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Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - nsper7 - 08-02-2009

(08-02-2009, 02:32 PM)didishroom Wrote: We musn't judge individuals but that doesn't mean we disregard the Church when she infallibly declares that there is only one Church in which we can be saved and which can be entered only through baptism of water.

Under normal conditions, I would say Baptism (by water) is necessary, but the Catechism acknowledges Baptism by Blood and by Desire:

Catechism of the Catholic Church Wrote:1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Sorry, the Catechism supersedes Fr. Feeney.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-02-2009

Sorry, but the Pope superceedes a catechism written by a committee of cardinals.


Mystici Corporis (No. 22) of Pope Pius XII:

“Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - veritatem_dilexisti - 08-02-2009

"If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, sess. VII, de Baptismo, can. II)

"If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema." (Ibid., can. V)


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - nsper7 - 08-02-2009

Quote:Sorry, but the Pope superceedes a catechism written by a committee of cardinals.

The Catechism is the compendium of Catholic doctrine, correct? Does it not have to be approved by the Pope? The current Catechism I believe was issued at the request of Pope John Paul II.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - nsper7 - 08-02-2009

Pope St. Pius X Wrote:If Baptism is necessary for all men, is no one saved without Baptism? - Without Baptism no one can be saved. However, when it is impossible to receive Baptism of water, the Baptism of blood suffices, that is, martyrdom suffered for Jesus Christ; and also the Baptism of desire suffices, which is the love of God by charity, desiring to make use of the means of salvation instituted by God.



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-02-2009

Yes, but the pope is not infallible in his approvals or even everything he writes. John Paul II, God rest his soul, approved of and partook in activities that were actually sacrilegeous.

However the Church has only ever affirmed that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. If we find contradiction in magesterial text, go with the infallible ones and ones consistent with Tradition.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-02-2009

(08-02-2009, 03:04 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Pope St. Pius X Wrote:If Baptism is necessary for all men, is no one saved without Baptism? - Without Baptism no one can be saved. However, when it is impossible to receive Baptism of water, the Baptism of blood suffices, that is, martyrdom suffered for Jesus Christ; and also the Baptism of desire suffices, which is the love of God by charity, desiring to make use of the means of salvation instituted by God.

Again, a catechism and one I believe that was written before he wa spope.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Valz - 08-02-2009

I wonder since when proclaiming that outside The Church there is no salvation became the exclusive domain of Fr. Feeney and his supporters or worse...a thing akin to what the Pharisees at the time of Lord Jesus did.

This is a dogma of the faith that has been defined authoritatively three times and has been proclaimed by Popes, Saints and Doctors innumerable times across history. It is only now, in the wake of the crisis in The Church that we see the watering down and pussyfooting around the dogma. As I said in the OP, it is one thing to admit the possibility that God in a way known to himself may save a person who dies outside the faith (and this The Church herself admits). it is quite another to neglect proclaiming or affirming the EENS dogma for the sake of political correctness or just out of plain cowardice or lukewarmness.

The possibility of salvation of those who die without the faith is not the rule, but the exception to the rule that outside The Church There is no salvation. The problem with a lot of Catholics today is that they turn the exception into the rule and altogether refrain from even talking about the rule. This is an irresponsible and dangerous attitude because it only helps to reassure non-Catholics in their errors. To tell them  that The Church is simply the best way among many by which one may make it to heaven leads to indifferentism and to the non-Catholic seeing no urgency to convert to the faith if he can do without the "extra" benefits.


Valz


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - nsper7 - 08-02-2009

Also, the EENS issue should be one of the later issues you address. First, you have to convince them that the Catholic Church is the True Chuch; otherwise, they will just laugh at us like we laugh at the Fundy-gelical Protestants. While going up to people and telling people they will most likely burn in Hell for all eternity if they do not become Catholic as a certain macabre joy and appeal to it, it is probably not going to lead people to the Church?

Is the goal to be obnoxious or to bring them to the Church?


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - devotedknuckles - 08-02-2009

HA
another feenyite thread. im missed these ones
HA