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Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Stubborn - 08-03-2009

(08-03-2009, 06:33 AM)Valz Wrote:
(08-03-2009, 04:56 AM)PeterII Wrote: And it makes no sense to combat the grave theological error of universal salvation with the grave theological error of Feenyism.  Sins of excess and sins of defect are both sins.

But since when is affirming EENS equal to Feenyism?

It is of no advantage to our evangelization efforts to be proclaiming the possibility that a non-Catholic may be saved outside The Church. It is the exception, not the rule and it we would be presuming on God's grace if we simply assume that the non-Catholic will be saved and neglect proclaiming the dogma.


Valz

Wow, thanks for an excellent post Valz!
+1  :)



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - PeterII - 08-04-2009

(08-03-2009, 06:33 AM)Valz Wrote:
(08-03-2009, 04:56 AM)PeterII Wrote: And it makes no sense to combat the grave theological error of universal salvation with the grave theological error of Feenyism.  Sins of excess and sins of defect are both sins.

But since when is affirming EENS equal to Feenyism?

It is of no advantage to our evangelization efforts to be proclaiming the possibility that a non-Catholic may be saved outside The Church. It is the exception, not the rule and it we would be presuming on God's grace if we simply assume that the non-Catholic will be saved and neglect proclaiming the dogma.


Valz

It is of advantage because we are not Calvinists preaching predestination and letting reasonable non-Catholics assume that God would send them to Hell for something they did not do.  They would deem that kind of God as unjust, and they would be right.   


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-04-2009

Quote: It is of advantage because we are not Calvinists preaching predestination and letting reasonable non-Catholics assume that God would send them to Hell for something they did not do.  They would deem that kind of God as unjust, and they would be right. 

1.  The Catholic Church most certainly preaches the predestination of the elect.  Calvin took it too far and preached the predestination of the damned, which we don't believe.

2.  Original Sin is something that none of us "did".  We are a fallen race.  Are you saying that it is unjust for God to damn those who have Original Sin on their soul?

3.  If you were in the Garden, would you have eaten the apple?  I would have.  Adam and Eve were a thousand times better than us, yet they fell.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - PeterII - 08-04-2009

(08-04-2009, 03:20 AM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: It is of advantage because we are not Calvinists preaching predestination and letting reasonable non-Catholics assume that God would send them to Hell for something they did not do.  They would deem that kind of God as unjust, and they would be right.   

1.  The Catholic Church most certainly preaches the predestination of the elect.  Calvin took it too far and preached the predestination of the damned, which we don't believe.

2.  Original Sin is something that none of us "did".  We are a fallen race.   Are you saying that it is unjust for God to damn those who have Original Sin on their soul?

3.  If you were in the Garden, would you have eaten the apple?  I would have.  Adam and Eve were a thousand times better than us, yet they fell.

1.Water Baptism is the definitive sign of predestination of the elect in Feeneyism.  Those who don't get it are not the elect in their opinion.

2. Yes it would be unjust for God to punish those for Original Sin only.  One has to commit a mortal sin to be damned.  Heaven is a privelege, not a right, but Hell is a deliberate choice.

3. Who knows.     


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Stubborn - 08-04-2009

(08-04-2009, 07:01 AM)PeterII Wrote: 1.Water Baptism is the definitive sign of predestination of the elect in Feeneyism.  Those who don't get it are not the elect in their opinion.

2. Yes it would be unjust for God to punish those for Original Sin only.  One has to commit a mortal sin to be damned.  Heaven is a privelege, not a right, but Hell is a deliberate choice.

3. Who knows.     

#3, I agree with, #1 I  definitely do not and #2 no, then yes.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - glgas - 08-04-2009

True God does not "depend" on anything but like you said, He is unchanging. His word does not change and His word has spoken of what is necessary for slavation.
[/quote]

The problem comes not from the side of God, but from our side: did we understand correctly what God said?

God said:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

He never said that 'he that is not baptized will be condemned.'


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Stubborn - 08-04-2009

Scroll down to the section on Baptism and read it to see the extraordinary lengths priests are directed to take, to ensure water does it's thing.

http://tinyurl.com/lxh8s3

Why all the bother if water is not absolutely necessary?

The book is from 1883 - before Fr. Feeney was even born. Go figure.
 


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-04-2009

Quote: 1.Water Baptism is the definitive sign of predestination of the elect in Feeneyism.  Those who don't get it are not the elect in their opinion.
Water baptism is a necessary sign of election, but not definitive.  However, we do not know for certain if someone did NOT receive water baptism.  And I am open to there being other ways, though I have no great hope in it, and these "other ways" have never been revealed to us.  At the same time, you have to be open to the fact that there is no "other way", and every professed Moslem, Jew, Pagan, or whatever won't be saved.  We can't judge God.

But still, my original point stands.  The elect are predestined to salvation.  That is Catholic Dogma.  To deny this is to become a Pelagian heretic.

Quote:2. Yes it would be unjust for God to punish those for Original Sin only.  One has to commit a mortal sin to be damned.  Heaven is a privelege, not a right, but Hell is a deliberate choice.
How much "punishment" someone with Original Sin only receives is debatable.  Some believe that Limbo, the upper level of hell, is actually a pleasant place.  However, it is not unjust for God to send those with Original Sin to hell.  You are judging God.

This in a microcosm shows the problems before Vatican II.  If you deny EENS, then before long you deny Original Sin, and/or judge God for not saving the reprobate.  Eventually you end up calling abortion a sacrament that saves the unbaptized babies who were slaughtered.

We are a fallen race.  NONE of us deserve heaven.  NONE of us can "earn" salvation.  We are saved by Grace.  Why you were baptized, and some pigmy out in the jungle won't be, is impossible to find out.  It is the sovereign plan of God.  Never judge God.  God's wrath is glorious.  Have hope in God's mercy, but do not stray from what His Church has revealed.



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Ray M Facere - 08-05-2009

Baptism of Desire simply follows an old moral theology principle, does it not? Let's say for instance that you are walking on your way to confession for which you have prepared well and you get hit by a bus and die. The Church admits the likelihood in this case that your sins are forgiven because you had already started the action that would inevitably result in your sins being sacramentally forgiven.

Now let's further say that a person desires to be baptized and live as a Catholic (even if they do not know what it really means to be a Catholic) but lacks either the freedom or possibility of actually doing it. If they die without the ritual of baptism in this case, we can still admit they are probably saved, because they had already begun the action of attempting to become a Catholic to the extent that is was possible for them (by living in accordance with the natural law, etc.).

Understood in this regard, baptism of desire and blood does not weaken the doctrine of EENS, because it merely provides a means for those for whom it would be physically impossible to participate in the ritual of baptism or those prohibited in some other way (like a teen who wishes to be a Catholic, but is prevented from doing so because his parents prohibit it) a means to become part of the Church.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - SCG - 08-05-2009

We humans love our extremes –leaning either toward universalism or choking legalism. I understand that those who hold a strict interpretation of EENS believe that God will provide a way for every man who desires baptism to be baptized in water. The problem I have is that when many (including a few catechumens) do not, in fact, make it to the baptismal font, I am left to conclude that God has not really willed their salvation after all, which contradicts Scripture: “that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4). 

As Catholics we can certainly believe in a predestination that says, for example: “God wills all men be saved – unfortunately all men do not cooperate with God’s Will.” However we are not Calvinists, who believe that God wills some people to be saved and some people to be damned. Could somebody explain to me then what is the difference between the thinking of Fr. Feeney and John Calvin on predestination?  Because right now I don’t see a big difference.

- Lisa