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Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Printable Version

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Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - PeterII - 08-06-2009

Quote:What is an "invisible internal forum"?

Someone's conscience.

Quote:Protestants love this quote.  But read further: "Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized (saved -- added), who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "  From the context, forbidding water is forbidding salvation.  The Holy Ghost also descended on the Old Testament prophets.  And yet they had to wait in Limbo for Jesus to be saved.  The Holy Ghost was poured out on these Gentiles to prove that they should be allowed to be baptized, not to show that by works they could save themselves.

This also shows that God sent a missionary to baptize them.

Forbidding water does not forbid salvation, it forbid's formal membership into the Catholic Church.  And the souls of the Old Testament prophets in Father's Limbo were certainly not baptized by water after the Redemption.

The error of Universal Salvationists is that no one is morally obligated to formally join the Catholic Church.  The Feeneyites counteract this with the error that only formal membership in the Catholic Church can save you.  Catholic doctrine is that non-Catholics are morally obligated to become members of the Catholic Church, but impediments beyond their control may block this.  They can still be saved within the Catholic Church by internally cooperating with God's grace. 



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-07-2009

Quote: Forbidding water does not forbid salvation,
That is the protestant interpretation and paradoxically, yours.  I think from the context, and the use of the strong language "forbid", withholding water is an allegory for withholding salvation.  Furthermore, the Church has always taught that baptism removes Original Sin and infuses the soul with Sanctifying Grace.  Therefore, Cornelious was a condemned man until he was baptized.  Just because he did some good deeds and prayed, this could never atone for his sins.  He needed to be washed with the waters of regeneration.

Quote: CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles,
  So for adult converts the Holy Ghost acts BEFORE baptism, giving us Faith and amending our will, which leads us to come to the regeneration of holy baptism.  This is what happened to Cornelius.  Your Bible passage does not prove anything, except that God will send a missionary to those He wishes to save.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-07-2009

Quote: Well certainly we are all predestined for heaven - to think otherwise makes God out to be a very mean God. After all, the very reason He made us is to know love and serve him here so we can be happy with him in Heaven.

Certainly "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" but we have to put forth some effort or we should expect to face God's wrath when we meet Him.
This is not true.  If we were all predestined for heaven, we would all go to heaven.  The reason God is not a "very mean" God is because He also gives us free will.  This is the main problem with Calvinists.  They DO believe that God is Moloch since they deny free will.  To them, God creates the reprobate to damn them.  To sum up:
1. All of us deserve damnation.  We are a fallen race.  Now "damnation" might mean happiness in Limbo, or torments in the pit of hell, but in all cases, none of us can deserve the Beatific vision.
2.  Those who are predestined to election are given Graces and fitted into God's sovereign plan so that we will be baptized.  There might be another way to be saved, but this has never been revealed to us.
3.  Those who are not saved, either rejected God's Grace, or perhaps WOULD have rejected God's Grace and been in worse torment.  We don't know, and can't know.
4.  When we have Faith, or do Good Works, it is a mystery.  We have and do these from the Grace of God.  At the same time, our Free Will cooperates with this Grace. How this works is a mystery on the same level as the Incarnation or the Trinity.
Quote:This effort is one of the "works" Calvin denies - and is of which James speaks: For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. and Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
We weren't discussing "Faith" vs. "Works".  We were discussing Grace, which is necessary for both "Faith" and "Works" of Charity.


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - Stubborn - 08-07-2009

(08-07-2009, 01:22 AM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Well certainly we are all predestined for heaven - to think otherwise makes God out to be a very mean God. After all, the very reason He made us is to know love and serve him here so we can be happy with him in Heaven.

Certainly "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" but we have to put forth some effort or we should expect to face God's wrath when we meet Him.
This is not true.  If we were all predestined for heaven, we would all go to heaven.  The reason God is not a "very mean" God is because He also gives us free will.  This is the main problem with Calvinists.  They DO believe that God is Moloch since they deny free will.  To them, God creates the reprobate to damn them.

Yes I agree.

I was not referring to the presumptuousness "Protestant doctrine" in the matter of Predestination. I used a bad choice of words. Sorry about that.

What I mean to say is we are all created for heaven, which is not to say we are "predestined" and will absolutely go there. 

Anyway, sometimes it seems like the only ones destined for hell are EENSers. Amazing.




Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - JacafamalaRedux - 08-07-2009

Quote
What is an "invisible internal forum"?

Peter II: Someone's conscience.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ooooooooooooooooooooooh! I like that.








Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-07-2009

Quote:The problem I have is that when many (including a few catechumens) do not, in fact, make it to the baptismal font, I am left to conclude that God has not really willed their salvation after all, which contradicts Scripture: “that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).
There is no contradiction. If you believe God will provide the means of salvation to everyone who desires it and if such a person dies without said requirements then we can only conclude that they did not truly want it.

You are assuming that this hypothetical catechumen was willing and deserving of heaven.

We should not let our emotions dictate our understanding of doctrine.

If we trust that God is all loving and all merciful than no one is damned wihtout first refusing God and His grace.

Car crashes and human accidents don't stop God.



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-07-2009

Quote:The magisterial statements are unequivocal in teaching that it is possible not to receive actual water baptism and be saved, which Tradition backs up with numerous examples.  The "other ways," namely a direct infusion of Sanctifying Grace from God has been revealed and is a part of the deposit of Faith.  It was not pulled out of the blue by the Church Fathers and it doesn't make sense to say for a fact there is no other way but hoping there is.  There is or there isn't.
This is garbage! Where are all these magisterial statements saying such a thing?! Before you provided an ambiguous statement from Pius IX and a statement from Pius XII which in no way backed up what you are professing!

I'm not sure why I'm really bothering to argue with you anyway, cause no matter what magesterial documents are provided which contradict your claims you'll just say they support you with no proof.


Quote:They may be united to the Catholic Church in a hidden way, but will never know with certainty until they become formal members with water Baptism.  But even a formal member can't know with absolute certainty whether they are in the state of grace or not.
Baptism is the ONLY way to be united to the Church.   




Quote:True, but that can work the other way too.  If one has the Feeneyite understanding of EENS, you fall into a kind of Jansenism and Calvinism which is also erroneous.  We shouldn't combat one error with another.
I really wish people on this forum would know the defintions of a specific heresy before they just started flinging the lable at people they don't like. There is nothing about understanding the EENS dogma in a literal sense that can be tired with Jansenism or Calvinism. Back yourself up before making this outrageous claims!


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - didishroom - 08-07-2009

Quote:Cornelius the Gentile: "A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people and always praying to God" was a just man and performed miracles before he was baptized by St. Peter.  Obviously, despite not being baptized, he was not worshipping a false God.

...and? Who here has denied that grace can precede Baptism? But the question that should be asked was why was Cornelius baptized anyway? He was already justified. What was the piont of sending the pope to carry out, what you would consider to be an unnecessary, ritual?

And while we're bringing up scenarios from the Acts of the Apostles, what about the Queen's eunich? Did this man not have baptism if desire? Why did God bother to send Philip miraculously to baptize him right then and there?


Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - PeterII - 08-07-2009

Quote:That is the protestant interpretation and paradoxically, yours.  I think from the context, and the use of the strong language "forbid", withholding water is an allegory for withholding salvation.  Furthermore, the Church has always taught that baptism removes Original Sin and infuses the soul with Sanctifying Grace.  Therefore, Cornelious was a condemned man until he was baptized.  Just because he did some good deeds and prayed, this could never atone for his sins.  He needed to be washed with the waters of regeneration.

You've got it backwards.  Cornelius is described as a "just" man before water baptism, certainly not as a condemned man. The Protestant interpretation is yours.  Here are Protestants backing up your interpretation of scripture: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/537-acts-10-11-was-cornelius-saved-before-being-baptized; http://www.christistheway.com/2004/a04a05aa.html

And here is St. Thomas Aquinas contradicting that false Protestant interpretation:
Quote:Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." (Third Part, Question 69)


Quote:So for adult converts the Holy Ghost acts BEFORE baptism, giving us Faith and amending our will, which leads us to come to the regeneration of holy baptism.  This is what happened to Cornelius.  Your Bible passage does not prove anything, except that God will send a missionary to those He wishes to save.

This is partly true, but omits the fact that our sins can be forgiven before water baptism as St. Thomas Aquinas clearly teaches.  While God sends missionaries, they are not strictly necessary to be saved - just like God sends priests to administer the last rites to someone on their deathbed, even though you can still be forgiven if you have perfect contrition.  



Re: Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS? - James02 - 08-07-2009

Quote: You've got it backwards.  Cornelius is described as a "just" man before water baptism, certainly not as a condemned man. The Protestant interpretation is yours.  Here are Protestants backing up your interpretation of scripture: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/537-acts-10-11-was-cornelius-saved-before-being-baptized; http://www.christistheway.com/2004/a04a05aa.html
He was described as a "just" man by his pagan servants.  This does not prove anything.
Quote:And here is St. Thomas Aquinas contradicting that false Protestant interpretation:

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." (Third Part, Question 69)
First, Aquinas is not infallible, but this is your best argument so far.  However, I have never denied that the unbaptized receive ACTUAL graces.  In fact, an adult who converts can NOT come to regeneration unless he receives these ACTUAL graces.  I have been quoting from the Council of Orange, remember?  Second, Aquinas says that the pagan can receive the forgiveness of his sins.  Does this equate to salvation?  The Jews in the Old Covenant could obtain just as much.  The passage you site is silent on whether this equates to salvation.  Third, when addressing the case of Cornelius, he just says that he receives graces (actual?) and virtues through faith.  He doesn't say the Cornelius was saved before baptism.  You also left out this part:
Quote: I answer that, As Augustine says in the book on Infant Baptism (De Pecc. Merit. et Remiss. i) "the effect of Baptism is that the baptized are incorporated in Christ as His members."

And finally take note of this:
Quote: And now send men to Joppe, and call hither one Simon, who is surnamed Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side.  He will tell thee what thous must do.