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Molinism: Small Question - Historian - 08-14-2009

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

Quote:These truths are independent of God's will and cannot be false.

Is this accurate?

If it is, it is false. God IS WHO IS, the first and the last, and to use the facts of this creation and our logic (which doesn't always work, as some things can deny classical logical systems, such as quantum mechanics) to say they are "above" God in anyway is heresy.

Is this statement of Wikipedia correctly describing Molinism?

In the Mystical City of God, the battle in Heaven is described as God knew what would happen as if it already did happen, but He did not reveal this information and all creation (Satan, in particular) was blind to what would happen (which lead to Satan making some pretty big boasts) unless He revealed it.

It seems God rarely reveals choices of others which take place in the future (St. Peter's denial and Judas's betrayal being the most prominent, yet even they did not violate free will) and only reveals His plan, which is independent of the choices of others. I would think this is because all beings less than God (all beings) cannot rightfully handle such information (some of the issues with knowing the future, and future choices are shown in the Matrix and Minority Report).

We have enough science to show us that "truth" is beyond our grasp. We cannot even say if the basic units of this universe are waves or particles (usually, they are both), how can we presume to know Truth without it being revealed to us?




Re: Molinism: Small Question - James02 - 08-14-2009

Maybe it could have been written better.  Here's the rest of it:

Quote:The first is God's knowledge of necessary truths.  These truths are independent of God's will and cannot be false. Examples include statements like, "All bachelors are unmarried" or "X cannot be A and non-A at the same time, in the same way, at the same place".

I think he means God's Will to mean God's Choice in the matter vs. us using our free-will.  Or in this case, statements of fact.  He is not denying God's sovereignty here.  Water is wet, or it is a liquid.  Or Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen.  These are necessary truths.  They result from the law of non-contradiction.


Re: Molinism: Small Question - Historian - 08-14-2009

(08-14-2009, 04:02 AM)James02 Wrote: I think he means God's Will to mean God's Choice in the matter vs. us using our free-will.  Or in this case, statements of fact.  He is not denying God's sovereignty here.   Water is wet, or it is a liquid.  Or Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen.  These are necessary truths.  They result from the law of non-contradiction.

Butt they are not truths; they are observations.

Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, but what is hydrogen and oxygen? It is, apparently, a bunch of quarks which cannot be separated by known forces (strong nuclear force) and having a following of electrons which phase in and out of existence, as far as we know.

Non contradiction? How can light be a particle and a wave? How can God be Three and One? Given God's nature, I'd say all is His choice.


Re: Molinism: Small Question - James02 - 08-14-2009

That's what I mean.  God created a framework with rules.  So anything created in this framework follows these rules (with the exception of miracles).  So if God chose to create and ocean here, or over there, in either case, the water created would be liquid.  It will operate inside the framework He created.  But the location of an ocean doesn't have to be here or there.  It is where it is because of God's choice.

But yes, even the framework was established by God.


Re: Molinism: Small Question - Lagrange - 11-22-2010

(08-14-2009, 11:25 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(08-14-2009, 04:02 AM)James02 Wrote: I think he means God's Will to mean God's Choice in the matter vs. us using our free-will.  Or in this case, statements of fact.  He is not denying God's sovereignty here.   Water is wet, or it is a liquid.  Or Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen.  These are necessary truths.  They result from the law of non-contradiction.

Butt they are not truths; they are observations.

Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, but what is hydrogen and oxygen? It is, apparently, a bunch of quarks which cannot be separated by known forces (strong nuclear force) and having a following of electrons which phase in and out of existence, as far as we know.

Non contradiction? How can light be a particle and a wave? How can God be Three and One? Given God's nature, I'd say all is His choice.

Acknowledging that God is 'bound' by logical truths does not negate His sovereignty. It is only via language that we speak of God being ''bound'', but in reality, He is utterly sovereign because anything contradictory is not a 'thing' in the first place (but an absurdity).

Descartes did go so far as to claim God can make 1+1= 3 . That's not the Church's way of thinking though. It is meaningless to claim such things belong to God's choice. God is Truth itself. God cannot go against Himself.


Re: Molinism: Small Question - Totterman - 11-22-2010

Jesus,our Lords peace be with You.
Dear friend,brothers and sisters in Christ. I am maybe stupid,or then I don't understand,but the way I see it,is that what ever we need to know is in the Bible. It is always tempting to try see things in other ways,but as it is in a song by J.Cash,"the moore You know the moore You know that You don't know at all". Simply,I search the Bible,[and the Catheshism]for what I need to know,the rest comes with prayers,I don't only pray,I also listen,and the answers that I need,will come. We all pray,but do we listen? God want words from our heart,not mouth,faith is not measured in how often you pray,a good thing done is as good as a prayer,one prayer from your heart is worth hundreds from your mouth. But I know you all here are good catholics,faithful to the Church,so I don't need to write moore about this issue,and it was not meant to be against anyone,I only told you what I do,and I guess you all have both better and moore right ways then I,I am only a humble christian,doing what God tells me to do,and that is simply to be a good catholic.
Blessings,
Totterman