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Priestly Vows of Obedience - Printable Version

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Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

Quote:It isn't about comfort! This is the Body and Blood of Christ. What if they were "comfortable" with jokes and balloons during mass?

The mass is not a social gathering. In fact, I kind of like some of the Eastern traditions where there is a very clear separation between the priest and the laity.

You can bet in my Diocese I would no liturgical abuse. I can't stand people being irreverent at Mass and Priest celebrating the Mass irreverently.


Quote:We know as you said.

Do you know what we said?

And it wasn't "asking" you said, but commanding.

Originally, I said if I made a formal agreement with the FSSP, etc. as a Bishop, there would be an 'emergency circumstances' sort of clause in there.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 07:50 PM)nsper7 Wrote: You can bet in my Diocese I would no liturgical abuse. I can't stand people being irreverent at Mass and Priest celebrating the Mass irreverently.
But do you really know what "irreverent" means?

Quote:Originally, I said if I made a formal agreement with the FSSP, etc. as a Bishop, there would be an 'emergency circumstances' sort of clause in there.

And if you were a Bishop, the FSSP would not go near you for such a dangerous statement. Do you know what they'd think about something like that?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - franklinf - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 07:46 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:41 PM)franklinf Wrote: Validity is not the end all / be all. To say that FSSP priests (and the like) should have no qualms celebrating the NO because it is valid is quite a legalistic / minimalist / bare bones approach to Mass.

Is a NO with the usual EMHCs, altar servers, banal music, non-Roman Canon EP, versus populum, etc valid? Yes. Does that mean it is on equal grounds with the TLM? No, of course not. Many, particularly those in question, would argue that it is spiritually deficient and harmful to the Faith.

To expect them to celebrate a Mass that explicitly goes against their charism (40 yrs of novelty versus hundreds of years of organic growth and tradition) is absurd. Just because it is valid don't make it right.

As I said, the only time I would even consider asking an FSSP, etc. Priest to celebrate an NO/OF Mass would be some crazy emergency situation where there were Priests who preferred/usually celebrated the NO/OF available to meet the needs of the element of the Catholic flock that prefers the NO/OF.

EDIT: And, as I said earlier, I would push for more Diocesan Priests to learn to celebrate the TLM/EF to meet the needs of the element of the Catholic flock that prefers the TLM/EF.

Then why wouldn't the FSSP priest just celebrate the TLM? It is valid after all.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 07:56 PM)franklinf Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:46 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:41 PM)franklinf Wrote: Validity is not the end all / be all. To say that FSSP priests (and the like) should have no qualms celebrating the NO because it is valid is quite a legalistic / minimalist / bare bones approach to Mass.

Is a NO with the usual EMHCs, altar servers, banal music, non-Roman Canon EP, versus populum, etc valid? Yes. Does that mean it is on equal grounds with the TLM? No, of course not. Many, particularly those in question, would argue that it is spiritually deficient and harmful to the Faith.

To expect them to celebrate a Mass that explicitly goes against their charism (40 yrs of novelty versus hundreds of years of organic growth and tradition) is absurd. Just because it is valid don't make it right.

As I said, the only time I would even consider asking an FSSP, etc. Priest to celebrate an NO/OF Mass would be some crazy emergency situation where there were Priests who preferred/usually celebrated the NO/OF available to meet the needs of the element of the Catholic flock that prefers the NO/OF.

EDIT: And, as I said earlier, I would push for more Diocesan Priests to learn to celebrate the TLM/EF to meet the needs of the element of the Catholic flock that prefers the TLM/EF.

Then why wouldn't the FSSP priest just celebrate the TLM? It is valid after all.

That's probably what I would do.

Quote:And if you were a Bishop, the FSSP would not go near you for such a dangerous statement. Do you know what they'd think about something like that?

Well, then I'd just have to train my Diocesan Priests in how to celebrate the TLM/EF.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 07:58 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, then I'd just have to train my Diocesan Priests in how to celebrate the TLM/EF.

And such priests would be equally wary of you.

You can't eat your cake and have it too.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 08:05 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:58 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, then I'd just have to train my Diocesan Priests in how to celebrate the TLM/EF.

And such priests would be equally wary of you.

Why?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 08:05 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:58 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, then I'd just have to train my Diocesan Priests in how to celebrate the TLM/EF.

And such priests would be equally wary of you.

Why?

Ok, how would you convince an entire diocese of priests who celebrate the NO to learn how to celebrate the TLM and ensure they all do it. I'd also like to know how you'd fund that.







Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 08:10 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 08:05 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:58 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, then I'd just have to train my Diocesan Priests in how to celebrate the TLM/EF.

And such priests would be equally wary of you.

Why?

Ok, how would you convince an entire diocese of priests who celebrate the NO to learn how to celebrate the TLM and ensure they all do it. I'd also like to know how you'd fund that.

They wouldn't *all* have to learn to celebrate the TLM. I could pick a handful of Priests that I view as being intelligent enough to handle the challenge and Traditional/Neo-Conservative enough to value and respect the TLM. After all, just a couple of parishes in your Diocese that do TLMs on Sunday (along with NO Masses) would be a step up from what a lot of places have.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 08:13 PM)nsper7 Wrote: They wouldn't *all* have to learn to celebrate the TLM. I could pick a handful of Priests that I view as being intelligent enough to handle the challenge and Traditional/Neo-Conservative enough to value and respect the TLM. After all, just a couple of parishes in your Diocese that do TLMs on Sunday (along with NO Masses) would be a step up from what a lot of places have.

Intelligence is not the issue. Being "neo-conservative", whatever that means, is also not desirable.




Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 08:16 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 08:13 PM)nsper7 Wrote: They wouldn't *all* have to learn to celebrate the TLM. I could pick a handful of Priests that I view as being intelligent enough to handle the challenge and Traditional/Neo-Conservative enough to value and respect the TLM. After all, just a couple of parishes in your Diocese that do TLMs on Sunday (along with NO Masses) would be a step up from what a lot of places have.

Intelligence is not the issue. Being "neo-conservative", whatever that means, is also not desirable.

Look, in my Diocese, no parish has a TLM...