FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
Priestly Vows of Obedience - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Archives (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Theology and Philosophy (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Priestly Vows of Obedience (/showthread.php?tid=31840)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 09:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, my Candidacy would start at their Monastery in Washington, DC. After a year, my Postulancy would occur at Ein Karem in Israel.
I must be honest...I had the same intentions as jovan66102.

Well, before you go, keep in mind everything you put on the Internet is here forever. Anyone can read it at any time.

This is why people who may be becoming priests are discouraged from posting on the forum. But I suppose it would help find the bad eggs before they start leaking onto lower shelves.


Quote:I don't think you would anyway. They are actually obedient to the Church AND they respect the Pope and hierarchy AND they celebrate the NO Mass (I only ever saw NO/OF Masses when I was at their Monastery...they were well done though, I noticed no glaring liturgical abuse).
A liturgical abuse need not be glaring. It is said when something is found to be acceptable when it is has no glaring abuses!

Keep in mind that all your opinions about the NO seem to be the result of growing up with it. I can tell you; the NO is severely deficient in the best of circumstances when compared to the TLM. I have attended many rites, and only the NO is what I'd call deficient.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 09:33 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Remind me to never donate to them again!

I don't think you would anyway. They are actually obedient to the Church AND they respect the Pope and hierarchy AND they celebrate the NO Mass (I only ever saw NO/OF Masses when I was at their Monastery...they were well done though, I noticed no glaring liturgical abuse).

Actually, I have donated to them for years. However, if they can accept you as a Candidate, I shan't ever again. Just sayin'.
They can always eject someone right?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 09:33 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Remind me to never donate to them again!

I don't think you would anyway. They are actually obedient to the Church AND they respect the Pope and hierarchy AND they celebrate the NO Mass (I only ever saw NO/OF Masses when I was at their Monastery...they were well done though, I noticed no glaring liturgical abuse).

Actually, I have donated to them for years. However, if they can accept you as a Candidate, I shan't ever again. Just sayin'.

I have to say that was a really nasty comment. I mean, we may disagree with things, but did you have to say something like that?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - jovan66102 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 09:37 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:33 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Remind me to never donate to them again!

I don't think you would anyway. They are actually obedient to the Church AND they respect the Pope and hierarchy AND they celebrate the NO Mass (I only ever saw NO/OF Masses when I was at their Monastery...they were well done though, I noticed no glaring liturgical abuse).

Actually, I have donated to them for years. However, if they can accept you as a Candidate, I shan't ever again. Just sayin'.

I have to say that was a really nasty comment. I mean, we may disagree with things, but did you have to say something like that?

You're right and I apologise.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 09:41 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:37 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:33 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Remind me to never donate to them again!

I don't think you would anyway. They are actually obedient to the Church AND they respect the Pope and hierarchy AND they celebrate the NO Mass (I only ever saw NO/OF Masses when I was at their Monastery...they were well done though, I noticed no glaring liturgical abuse).

Actually, I have donated to them for years. However, if they can accept you as a Candidate, I shan't ever again. Just sayin'.

I have to say that was a really nasty comment. I mean, we may disagree with things, but did you have to say something like that?

You're right and I apologise.

Well...you were more diplomatic than someone who strove to get the location of his superiors for future reports.

nsper7, you weren't so nice with the insinuation that he wouldn't contribute to someone obedient to the Church and respectful of the Pope...


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 09:45 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:41 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:37 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:33 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 09:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Remind me to never donate to them again!

I don't think you would anyway. They are actually obedient to the Church AND they respect the Pope and hierarchy AND they celebrate the NO Mass (I only ever saw NO/OF Masses when I was at their Monastery...they were well done though, I noticed no glaring liturgical abuse).

Actually, I have donated to them for years. However, if they can accept you as a Candidate, I shan't ever again. Just sayin'.

I have to say that was a really nasty comment. I mean, we may disagree with things, but did you have to say something like that?

You're right and I apologise.

Well...you were more diplomatic than someone who strove to get the location of his superiors for future reports.

nsper7, you weren't so nice with the insinuation that he wouldn't contribute to someone obedient to the Church and respectful of the Pope...

I am sorry for what I said too. I guess I let me ire get the better of me there. Sorry again.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-05-2009

(11-04-2009, 02:33 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 02:31 PM)nsper7 Wrote: When a person receives Holy Orders and becomes a Priest, they make certain vows, especially a vow of obedience? Who are they vowing to obey? My understanding is that they are promising to obey their Bishop (if they are Diocesan) or their Superior (if they are religious). Therefore, as it relates to the Traditional issues, aren't Priests still required to obey their Bishop (and the Church in general)? For example, the Church has deemed the NO Mass valid and the Ordinary Form, therefore aren't Latin Rite Priests required to celebrate it if there Bishop so desires it?

It seems like if you are a Priest, then you are required to obey your superiors (either Diocesan or religious) and you are always required to adhere to Canon Law, correct?

Your intent is clear;  Counselor Troi is not needed.

God is always first when it comes to obedience.

As for Canon law, it does allow for "disobedience" when it is necessary.

Obeying superiors is a grave duty of a Christian (for all). Even the commands of an angel or saint are inferior to those of a superior. The vows are also superior. In the records of a certain saint's reception of an apparition of Our Lady, his order had a special prayer time, and the bell rang and he had to leave. When he returned, he was told if he had not followed his vow, he would never again have seen her.

However, the Church has many humans in it, and there are times when "disobedience" is necessary to be true to one's vow.

You're only permitted to defy an order from a superior if the superior is commanding to sin.  So unless you view the it as a sin to say the Novus Ordo, then a priest would be bound to say it if a superior commanded them (although this begs the question how you could think the Pope is legitimate if he's promulgating a sinful liturgy).

I'm a diocesan seminarian, and God willing, I hope to be a diocesan priest one day.  Do I think the traditional Mass is superior to the new Mass in many respects?  Yes.  Will I say the NO regardless?  Yes.  A man is not called to be a priest for himself, but for the Church.  My superiors (up to the Pope himself) deem that the new Mass is the ordinary form of worship, and I consent to that.  I'm not going to spread discord by defying my bishop and only saying the EF (I'm quite sure stubbornness like that is grounds for reprimand and kissing any chance of being a pastor good bye).

In addition, we're taught at the seminary that obedience isn't just "lip service", just as celibacy isn't a refusal to marry someone and prayer isn't "getting in what's required".  The priestly promises/vows are supposed to be life-giving to the priest.  We're supposed to find joy and happiness in celibacy.  We're suppose to drink up the sweet treasures of the Office.  And we're supposed to humbly, willfully, and lovingly respect orders that are given to us.  Can you disagree with your superior's decision?  Yes.  Can you think that you might be better elsewhere?  Yes.  Could you tell him all your strengths, and try to convince him why you'd be better in so-and-so?  Yes.  But at the end of the day, will you obey even if he disregards everything?  I hope I could say yes...If Christ was obedient to the point of death, then I hope I can obey the one whom He's given authority.  The command might as well have come from Christ Himself.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 01:36 AM)MeaMaximaCulpa Wrote: You're only permitted to defy an order from a superior if the superior is commanding to sin.  So unless you view the it as a sin to say the Novus Ordo, then a priest would be bound to say it if a superior commanded them (although this begs the question how you could think the Pope is legitimate if he's promulgating a sinful liturgy).

What if a superior is ordering to defy one's vow or another superior?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 02:11 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-05-2009, 01:36 AM)MeaMaximaCulpa Wrote: You're only permitted to defy an order from a superior if the superior is commanding to sin.  So unless you view the it as a sin to say the Novus Ordo, then a priest would be bound to say it if a superior commanded them (although this begs the question how you could think the Pope is legitimate if he's promulgating a sinful liturgy).

What if a superior is ordering to defy one's vow or another superior?

Wouldn't a superior ordering you defy one of your vows be a case of a superior ordering you to sin? Also, give an example of a superior ordering to defy another superior? Correct me if I am wrong, but one's vow of obedience is, if you are a Diocesan Priest, to the Bishop of your Diocese. An order from the Pope, who outranks the Diocesan Bishop, would outweigh an order from your Bishop (basically, the Bishop and the entirety of the Church is required to obey the Pope, so if the Bishop was ordering you to do something in direct contravention to the Pope's orders would be, in effect, ordering you to sin). If a Bishop from another Diocese ordered you to do something that went against what the Bishop of your own Diocese told you to do, you would obey your Diocesan Bishop since your vow is to him. Is this assumption/description correct?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 04:15 AM)nsper7 Wrote: Wouldn't a superior ordering you defy one of your vows be a case of a superior ordering you to sin?
I don't know. You tell me.

Quote: Also, give an example of a superior ordering to defy another superior?
A superior gives one order and another gives a contradicting order without the other being rescinded. It isn't that complex of in idea...

Quote:Correct me if I am wrong, but one's vow of obedience is, if you are a Diocesan Priest, to the Bishop of your Diocese.
It could also be to a particular order,  a previous bishop, a higher ranking official than a bishop, a personal vow that is strictly followed, etc.

Quote: An order from the Pope, who outranks the Diocesan Bishop, would outweigh an order from your Bishop (basically, the Bishop and the entirety of the Church is required to obey the Pope, so if the Bishop was ordering you to do something in direct contravention to the Pope's orders would be, in effect, ordering you to sin). If a Bishop from another Diocese ordered you to do something that went against what the Bishop of your own Diocese told you to do, you would obey your Diocesan Bishop since your vow is to him. Is this assumption/description correct?
Probably, but I'm not talking about that.