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Priestly Vows of Obedience - Printable Version

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Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 12:08 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-05-2009, 04:15 AM)nsper7 Wrote: Wouldn't a superior ordering you defy one of your vows be a case of a superior ordering you to sin?
I don't know. You tell me.

Quote: Also, give an example of a superior ordering to defy another superior?
A superior gives one order and another gives a contradicting order without the other being rescinded. It isn't that complex of in idea...

Quote:Correct me if I am wrong, but one's vow of obedience is, if you are a Diocesan Priest, to the Bishop of your Diocese.
It could also be to a particular order,  a previous bishop, a higher ranking official than a bishop, a personal vow that is strictly followed, etc.

Quote: An order from the Pope, who outranks the Diocesan Bishop, would outweigh an order from your Bishop (basically, the Bishop and the entirety of the Church is required to obey the Pope, so if the Bishop was ordering you to do something in direct contravention to the Pope's orders would be, in effect, ordering you to sin). If a Bishop from another Diocese ordered you to do something that went against what the Bishop of your own Diocese told you to do, you would obey your Diocesan Bishop since your vow is to him. Is this assumption/description correct?
Probably, but I'm not talking about that.

Is there a Canon Lawyer in the house? :D


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Historian - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 12:51 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-05-2009, 12:08 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-05-2009, 04:15 AM)nsper7 Wrote: Wouldn't a superior ordering you defy one of your vows be a case of a superior ordering you to sin?
I don't know. You tell me.

Quote: Also, give an example of a superior ordering to defy another superior?
A superior gives one order and another gives a contradicting order without the other being rescinded. It isn't that complex of in idea...

Quote:Correct me if I am wrong, but one's vow of obedience is, if you are a Diocesan Priest, to the Bishop of your Diocese.
It could also be to a particular order,  a previous bishop, a higher ranking official than a bishop, a personal vow that is strictly followed, etc.

Quote: An order from the Pope, who outranks the Diocesan Bishop, would outweigh an order from your Bishop (basically, the Bishop and the entirety of the Church is required to obey the Pope, so if the Bishop was ordering you to do something in direct contravention to the Pope's orders would be, in effect, ordering you to sin). If a Bishop from another Diocese ordered you to do something that went against what the Bishop of your own Diocese told you to do, you would obey your Diocesan Bishop since your vow is to him. Is this assumption/description correct?
Probably, but I'm not talking about that.

Is there a Canon Lawyer in the house? :D

Well, since you haven't answered any questions (or even given the only request for information...about Canon Law which you claimed to know), I don't think you are really willing to discuss these things.

We all know you like the NO. Is there anything else you want to share (about matters of faith)?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - The_Harlequin_King - 11-05-2009

Rosarium Wrote:This is why people who may be becoming priests are discouraged from posting on the forum.

With all the things I've said online, I'd be interested in knowing which seminaries would accept me if they all combed through the Internet for all my posts on every forum, blog, etc. ever.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - WhollyRoaminCatholic - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 04:50 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
Rosarium Wrote:This is why people who may be becoming priests are discouraged from posting on the forum.

With all the things I've said online, I'd be interested in knowing which seminaries would accept me if they all combed through the Internet for all my posts on every forum, blog, etc. ever.

Have you applied with Pope Michael?

He has a seminary.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - Texican - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 09:35 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: Have you applied with Pope Michael?

He has a seminary.

and you can get a home-cooked meal while you're there, too.


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - SinfullyLate - 11-10-2009

nsper, have you ever thought that if you had been a priest 50 - 100 years ago you would have been considered by the majority of the church as dangerously liberal at best or a raving heretic at worst? Has right and wrong changed so much?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-10-2009

(11-10-2009, 12:19 AM)SinfullyLate Wrote: nsper, have you ever thought that if you had been a priest 50 - 100 years ago you would have been considered by the majority of the church as dangerously liberal at best or a raving heretic at worst? Has right and wrong changed so much?

Would I have? After all, all I am advocating here obedience to the Church and its chief Shepherd, the Pope. I advocate showing respect to members of the hierarchy. Are you saying that 50-100 years ago, being disobedient would have been viewed as a positive?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - SinfullyLate - 11-10-2009

(11-10-2009, 01:55 AM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 12:19 AM)SinfullyLate Wrote: nsper, have you ever thought that if you had been a priest 50 - 100 years ago you would have been considered by the majority of the church as dangerously liberal at best or a raving heretic at worst? Has right and wrong changed so much?

Would I have? After all, all I am advocating here obedience to the Church and its chief Shepherd, the Pope. I advocate showing respect to members of the hierarchy. Are you saying that 50-100 years ago, being disobedient would have been viewed as a positive?

Your support for innovations in both liturgy and issues of faith is what would have had you investigated for heresy.

You often speak of obedience to the Popes, but what about obedience to Popes such as Pope St Pius X with his condemnation of modernism?


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - nsper7 - 11-10-2009

(11-10-2009, 03:33 AM)SinfullyLate Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 01:55 AM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 12:19 AM)SinfullyLate Wrote: nsper, have you ever thought that if you had been a priest 50 - 100 years ago you would have been considered by the majority of the church as dangerously liberal at best or a raving heretic at worst? Has right and wrong changed so much?

Would I have? After all, all I am advocating here obedience to the Church and its chief Shepherd, the Pope. I advocate showing respect to members of the hierarchy. Are you saying that 50-100 years ago, being disobedient would have been viewed as a positive?

Your support for innovations in both liturgy and issues of faith is what would have had you investigated for heresy.

You often speak of obedience to the Popes, but what about obedience to Popes such as Pope St Pius X with his condemnation of modernism?

If by innovations of liturgy, you mean the Novus Ordo--remember that that is the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite as promulgated by Pope Paul VI. In terms of what St. Pius X would say if he were alive now, I don't know, but he is not the current Pope, Benedict XVI is and I am obedient to him. If I were alive in the time when St. Pius X was the Pope, then I would have been obedient to him.

In terms of the condemnation of modernism:

1) What did St. Pius X mean by 'modernism'?
2) How have modern Popes advocated this condemned 'modernism'?
3) What extenuating and other circumstances might alter the meaning behind the words of St. Pius X vs. one of the more recent Popes (i.e. when the Syllabus of Errors condemned the concept of religious freedom, remember that there was the existence of the Papal States and countries that were Catholic-controlled and fighting against secularizing influences and thus promoting religious freedom would be detrimental to the stability and security of these Catholic countries and, thus, Catholicism itself; now, when Vatican 2 discussed the issue of religious freedom, there were no, or very few, truly Catholic-controlle countries anymore and many that were stridently Anti-Catholic [i.e. Communist countries] and so promoting religious freedom actually protects Catholicism and allows for its spreading throughout non-Catholic countries)


Re: Priestly Vows of Obedience - SinfullyLate - 11-10-2009

(11-10-2009, 04:20 AM)nsper7 Wrote: 1) What did St. Pius X mean by 'modernism'?

Have you read his writings? He makes it clear what he means.

In the end all I am saying is, that if you were a priest under the reign of Pius X you would have been charged with modernism.