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Re: Traditional organizations? - jovan66102 - 11-04-2009

Pay no attention to the troll, i.e. petrelton! :laughing:


Re: Traditional organizations? - petrelton - 11-04-2009

(11-04-2009, 11:32 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Pay no attention to the troll, i.e. petrelton! :laughing:
I've made a valid point. Try answering my point sensibly instead of accusing of being a troll.

Here from Canon Law is proof that SSPX confessions are invalid.
Can. 966 §1 For the valid absolution of sins, it is required that, in addition to the power of order, the minister has the faculty to exercise that power in respect of the faithful to whom he gives absolution.

§2 A priest can be given this faculty either by the law itself, or by a concession issued by the competent authority in accordance with can. 969.

Can. 968 §1 By virtue of his office, for each within the limits of his jurisdiction, the faculty to hear confessions belongs to the local Ordinary, to the canon penitentiary, to the parish priest, and to those others who are in the place of the parish priest.

Can. 969 §1 Only the local Ordinary is competent to give to any priests whomsoever the faculty to hear the confessions of any whomsoever of the faithful. Priests who are members of religious institutes may not, however, use this faculty without the permission, at least presumed, of their Superior.

Can. 973 The faculty habitually to hear confessions is to be given in writing.

SSPX priests therefore only have the faculty to hear confessions in situations of grave danger or death
Can. 976 Any priest, even though he lacks the faculty to hear confessions, can validly and lawfully absolve any penitents who are in danger of death, from any censures and sins, even if an approved priest is present.

And this ruling from Ecclesia Dei

"The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid"




Re: Traditional organizations? - Scipio_a - 11-05-2009

Yes...beware of Peterelton...he is a fully anti-trad troll that tells a good story about being a trad...he's full of it and comes on just to confuse those looking and aching for the Truth contained in Tradition...

Nsper is also one not really worth paying attention to on this...since he has only ever been to 2 TLMs and is considering a vocation in the NO...


The poster that gave you the independent Chapel  is the one to look into...Jovan goes FSSP...he is fully Trad and trustworthy for advice as well


And WhollyRomanCath gave youo the link to the best TLM directory available with a proper caveat about the funny faces


I would check out the indie chapel and also browse the directory to see what else is around


Re: Traditional organizations? - petrelton - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 12:16 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: Yes...beware of Peterelton...he is a fully anti-trad troll that tells a good story about being a trad...he's full of it and comes on just to confuse those looking and aching for the Truth contained in Tradition...

Nsper is also one not really worth paying attention to on this...since he has only ever been to 2 TLMs and is considering a vocation in the NO...


The poster that gave you the independent Chapel   is the one to look into...Jovan goes FSSP...he is fully Trad and trustworthy for advice as well


And WhollyRomanCath gave youo the link to the best TLM directory available with a proper caveat about the funny faces


I would check out the indie chapel and also browse the directory to see what else is around
What's the point of going to an indie or sspx chapel if the confessions are invalid? The mass might be wondeful and holy and the priest might give an orthodox homily, but if the confessions are invalid then you are still in mortal sin and your sins are not absolved. Then when you eat the valid (but illicit) sacrament you are simply eating damnation to yourself. That is the clear teaching of the church and scripture. Obviously I am not addressing this to ignorant SSPX'ers who are not aware of the invalidity of the confessions. I am addressing SSPX'ers and indies who are aware of the invalid canonical state of their churches and who nevertheless beligerently persist in these practices.

Instead of belting me with troll accusations why don't you respond to my points and give an answer. You have never done so for the simple reason that you cannot. You are living in a fools paradise. You seem to think that just because you mean well that your confessions can somehow be miraculously be legitimised. They cannot. The power to forgive sins is a power of the apostles and is only given to them through the church united with the Pope. The Pope and the church have specifically stated that they do not grant this power to organisations which are outside the ordinary jurisdiction of the church.

You need to look long and hard at this question. Search your soul instead of fobbing me off. The issue is way too important.


Re: Traditional organizations? - nsper7 - 11-05-2009

(11-04-2009, 10:02 PM)damooster Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 07:51 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: As the poster above points out, Fr. Ringrose is not a member of the SSPX.  He is a former diocesan priest who went "independent."  I'm not sure how you feel about "independent" priests, but I figured you should be aware.  Even if you do attend Mass there, I would discourage you from going there for confessions, as he has no faculties and cannot validly grant absolution.

I'm a new Catholic and I do not know what an independent priest is. Are they not in communion with the Church?

Well, an "Independent" means they have rejected the authority of the Pope (most likely, said Independent is Sedevacantist) and I would just stay away from that mess. One would hope their Holy Orders are valid, but I don't know where you'd honestly look that hope. Even if their Holy Orders and Masses are valid (if they have valid Holy Orders, then their Masses will be valid), their Masses are illicit. Really, I would stay away from Independent Masses.

Go to the Diocesan TLM or the FSSP or even the SSPX (according to Msgr. Perl, attending an SSPX Mass fulfills your Sunday obligation if your reason for going is to experience the TLM [as opposed to attending because you wish to schism from Rome]). Also, do not go to the SSPX Priests for Confession because they lack ordinary jurisdiction to pronounce Absolution (except in grave circumstances, such as your dying in the street and an SSPX Priest is the only Priest nearby to hear the Confession...the same issue is true for Independent Priest: no ordinary jurisdiction).

For Confession, just find a Priest who possesses ordinary jursidiction (i.e. any Diocesan Priest, any FSSP Priest, any Priest in a religious order recognized by the Holy See). Even if they are liberal/progressive/modernist/whatever, as long as they say the words of Absolution properly, then your sins are forgiven.

So, in short, for a TLM Mass, go:

1) Diocesan TLM
2) FSSP
3) SSPX (as long as your intentions are not schismatic)
X) Stay away from Independent Masses!

For Confession, go:

1) Diocesan (NO or TLM, it shouldn't matter...a valid Absolution is a valid Absolution)
2) FSSP
3) Any other religious order/Society of Apostolic Life that is Canonically allowed to operate
X) Stay away from SSPX, Independent or anything else that lacks ordinary jurisdiction (i.e. Eastern Orthodox) EXCEPT in a grave situation (you're dying and the Priest walking by happens to be SSPX...even then, if you live, go to a Priest with ordinary jurisdiction, tell him what happened, and you'd probably want repeat all those sins confessed plus any new ones)

Remember that SCHISM is a very grave sin and that, under normal circumstances, willfully going to a Priest who lack ordinary jurisdiction for Confession means the Absolution is INVALID (as if you never went to Confession...in other words, you might as well have just called up your friend on the phone and told him or her all your sins).


Re: Traditional organizations? - glgas - 11-05-2009

I always use this website to find Traditional Mass.

http://web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

It does not have the SSPX neither the independent chapels, but all the FSSP, Institute of Christ, other small organizations and diocesan Traditional Masses are listed, updated often.

Here are the SSPX chapels. http://www.sspx.org/chapels.htm

As for 'community' my experience is that with the exception of the ethnic groups Catholics attend masses for the Mass, and not for the community. Most of the protestant churches are primarily to organize community, and they welcome outsiders too immediately. Their service is followed by intensive communication many times including the minister. We go to Church for the Mass. 


Re: Traditional organizations? - Clare Brigid - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 01:05 AM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, an "Independent" means they have rejected the authority of the Pope (most likely, said Independent is Sedevacantist) and I would just stay away from that mess. One would hope their Holy Orders are valid, but I don't know where you'd honestly look that hope.

St. Athanasius Chapel is most certainly not sedevacantist, and, as I said, the priest was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre.  The pastor preaches against sedevacantism.

On the other hand, I don't know how you could be sure that some of these priests at Novus Ordo parishes offering traditional Latin Masses are not simply Modernists with a refined aesthetic sensibility.


Re: Traditional organizations? - Clare Brigid - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 05:51 AM)glgas Wrote: As for 'community' my experience is that with the exception of the ethnic groups Catholics attend masses for the Mass, and not for the community. Most of the protestant churches are primarily to organize community, and they welcome outsiders too immediately. Their service is followed by intensive communication many times including the minister. We go to Church for the Mass.

Why not both?  Read the Acts of the Apostles.  Community is important, especially in times like this.  Catholicism is a "we" religion.  It's individualism that's Protestant.

I live in Philadelphia and began attending an SSPX chapel, St. Jude's, in September.  I felt called to support the SSPX, but I was afraid of isolating myself.  What a surprise I had when I attended Mass on Sunday for the first time!  The parish hall was packed, PACKED, with people before and after Mass.  There was food; people were eating and socializing, rather than making a beeline for their cars.  People stay an hour, two hours, or more after Mass.  Fr. Bergez gives adult catechism classes in the parish hall every other week; during the other Sundays, he gives catechism classes to the teenagers of the parish.  This was a thriving COMMUNITY.  A CATHOLIC COMMUNITY.  And it is very, very, very good.

St. Athanasius in Vienna, VA is for all practical purposes an SSPX chapel, I hear.  Why don't you go and see, Damooster?  Your experience might be the same as mine.


Re: Traditional organizations? - Clare Brigid - 11-05-2009

:bonfire:


Re: Traditional organizations? - petrelton - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 06:29 AM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote:
(11-05-2009, 05:51 AM)glgas Wrote: As for 'community' my experience is that with the exception of the ethnic groups Catholics attend masses for the Mass, and not for the community. Most of the protestant churches are primarily to organize community, and they welcome outsiders too immediately. Their service is followed by intensive communication many times including the minister. We go to Church for the Mass.

Why not both?  Read the Acts of the Apostles.  Community is important, especially in times like this.  Catholicism is a "we" religion.  It's individualism that's Protestant.

I live in Philadelphia and began attending an SSPX chapel, St. Jude's, in September.  I felt called to support the SSPX, but I was afraid of isolating myself.  What a surprise I had when I attended Mass on Sunday for the first time!  The parish hall was packed, PACKED, with people before and after Mass.  There was food; people were eating and socializing, rather than making a beeline for their cars.  People stay an hour, two hours, or more after Mass.  Fr. Bergez gives adult catechism classes in the parish hall every other week; during the other Sundays, he gives catechism classes to the teenagers of the parish.  This was a thriving COMMUNITY.  A CATHOLIC COMMUNITY.  And it is very, very, very good.

St. Athanasius in Vienna, VA is for all practical purposes an SSPX chapel, I hear.  Why don't you go and see, Damooster?  Your experience might be the same as mine.
It does sound good. Personally I would forgoe the food and socialising for a valid confession, but that's just me. Each to his own. Whatever works for you I guess.