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Re: Traditional organizations? - rbjmartin - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 04:11 PM)RRR Wrote: Trying to find out which clerics are heretics is being judgmental and finding fault? Trying to find out who is orthodox and who is a heretic runs contrary to the Gospel?

These are activities already handled by legitimate authority.  Again, God did not make you the Inquisitor or head of the Holy Office.  There are clerics who fall into your own sphere of influence (your local pastor, your local bishop).  If, in the course of trying to live a good Catholic life, you discover them preaching heresy, then go on and warn people about them.  But don't make it your business to go from priest to priest and bishop to bishop with a checklist.  Charity demands that you assume no fault.  It also demands that you not seek it out in others.  If error shows itself, you may point it out, but don't go about morbidly seeking to find heretics.  There is something quite unhealthy about a desire to do such a thing.  Those in the past who have done so in an official capacity have been delegated by others to take up this task.  They have not sought it out themselves.


Re: Traditional organizations? - rbjmartin - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 04:17 PM)RRR Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 06:57 PM)damooster Wrote: I'm sorry if this information is available somewhere on the website. I did not find it.

I want to attend a TLM that is offered by an organization like SSPX, FSSP, ICK etc., but none of those groups are in my area (area code 22305, northern VA). Are there any other organizations I should look for?

Both the SSPX and FSSP are over 3 hours away, and the closest ICK is in Jersey.

I can't complain too much; a parish 15 minutes away offers the TLM every Sunday, but it is held in a very "progressive" NO parish and I was hoping to find a traditional community.

Thanks.

Attend an Eastern Catholic Mass. Their Churches are much freer from the chaos going on in ours.

Even rbjmartin would approve of it.  ;D

I've attended Epiphany of Our Lord (Byzantine Catholic) several times.  It's quite solid.
http://www.epiphanyofourlord.org/

I've also heard very good things about the Melkite parish, Holy Transfiguration:
http://holytransfiguration.org/


Re: Traditional organizations? - RRR - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 04:21 PM)rbjmartin Wrote:
(11-05-2009, 04:11 PM)RRR Wrote: Trying to find out which clerics are heretics is being judgmental and finding fault? Trying to find out who is orthodox and who is a heretic runs contrary to the Gospel?

These are activities already handled by legitimate authority.  Again, God did not make you the Inquisitor or head of the Holy Office.  There are clerics who fall into your own sphere of influence (your local pastor, your local bishop).  If, in the course of trying to live a good Catholic life, you discover them preaching heresy, then go on and warn people about them.  But don't make it your business to go from priest to priest and bishop to bishop with a checklist.  Charity demands that you assume no fault.  It also demands that you not seek it out in others.  If error shows itself, you may point it out, but don't go about morbidly seeking to find heretics.  There is something quite unhealthy about a desire to do such a thing.  Those in the past who have done so in an official capacity have been delegated by others to take up this task.  They have not sought it out themselves.

First I did not say go around the world and interview people to find all living heretics. All I did was advise if you will place yourself under the authority of a cleric, make sure he has not been ipso facto removed from office because of heresy. It is not the Holy Office that removes people ipso facto, it is done *automatically*. We know this happens because of canon law and papal decree. It was a simple point I was making.

Charity demands the desire for the faithful to go to heaven. If the actions of bishops are that of modernists (love of ecumenical gatherings, worship with heretics... basic modernist actions), figure out if they are truly heretics. It is not unhealthy to know who are the enemies of Christ - those who undermine the unity and structure of the Catholic Church.


Re: Traditional organizations? - glgas - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 04:42 PM)RRR Wrote: First I did not say go around the world and interview people to find all living heretics. All I did was advise if you will place yourself under the authority of a cleric, make sure he has not been ipso facto removed from office because of heresy. It is not the Holy Office that removes people ipso facto, it is done *automatically*. We know this happens because of canon law and papal decree. It was a simple point I was making.

Charity demands the desire for the faithful to go to heaven. If the actions of bishops are that of modernists (love of ecumenical gatherings, worship with heretics... basic modernist actions), figure out if they are truly heretics. It is not unhealthy to know who are the enemies of Christ - those who undermine the unity and structure of the Catholic Church.

Here is the definition of the heresy:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Here is the definition of the obstinacy

Can 1326 1/ a person who after a condemnation or after the declaration of a penalty continues so to offend that from the circumstances the obstinate ill will of the person can prudently be inferred;

In the Catholic Church lay person is not the judge who is heretic, and the declaration of the heresy is not automatic.

Here are the occurrences of the term 'ipso facto'

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/1/RA.HTM

1    2,    3,  694|      A member must be held as ipso facto dismissed from an
2    2,    3,  701| deriving from profession cease ipso facto.~Nevertheless, if
3    6,    1, 1313|        so that it is incurred ipso facto when the delict is
4    6,    2, 1382|        ordination, however, is ipso facto suspended from the

The first two is about the dismissal of religious orders (requiring detailed investigation before dismissal), 1313 defines the ferendae and latae (ipso facto) sentences, and 1382 is why among others  the SSPX members are ipso facto suspended. From the modernist side mostly the women priests and the bishop ordaining them fall under this canon.

Here are the New testament occurrences of the word 'judge'. It worth to meditate on them:

http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?t=2&q=judge&b=drb



Re: Traditional organizations? - RRR - 11-05-2009

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php?topic=934915.0

http://www.dailycatholic.org/cumexapo.htm


Re: Traditional organizations? - damooster - 11-05-2009

I'm sorry for causing such a debate. I guess I should have explained myself better.

I am looking for a community that  embraces traditional beliefs. Prior to my conversion, I led a very sinful life and recognized that I needed God to overcome my sins. I was drawn to Catholicism because it seemed to be the Church that stuck to its guns; I remember hearing about the Church refusing to grant some celebrity an annulment (I think it was Jennifer Lopez, can't remember for sure though) and I knew I had found my Church. But now I see, in the parishes and people I have come across, that there is just as much scandal in the parishes around me. I saw someone self-intinct (is that the correct wording?) this past Saturday and was told that it was ok because that's how people used to do it.

Anyways, I'm rambling. My goal was (is) to find a community of like-minded individuals that can help me keep traditional practices through example. I've been to the TLM at St. Lawrence and I absolutely loved it, but the community at that parish is just as progressive as the ones near me. I planned on attending the TLM at St. Michael's but I imagine the community there will be similar (it's held at an NO parish). My home parish is actually pretty traditional (for an NO parish) but the people are so stuck up; its in a well-to-do neighborhood and if they can tell you don't make six figures a year, they don't want to have anything to do with you. I've had people flat out ask me if I speak English, as if I'm some lost illegal immigrant.

St. Athanasius sounds like the perfect place for me, but I've always been a pretty obedient person and I fear turning my back to the diocese. But I also see so many illicit things happening in the parishes, it makes me feel like I don't have a choice!

Thanks for letting me ramble and I hope that puts a better perspective on what I'm looking for.


Re: Traditional organizations? - petrelton - 11-05-2009

(11-05-2009, 08:08 PM)damooster Wrote: I'm sorry for causing such a debate. I guess I should have explained myself better.

I am looking for a community that  embraces traditional beliefs. Prior to my conversion, I led a very sinful life and recognized that I needed God to overcome my sins. I was drawn to Catholicism because it seemed to be the Church that stuck to its guns; I remember hearing about the Church refusing to grant some celebrity an annulment (I think it was Jennifer Lopez, can't remember for sure though) and I knew I had found my Church. But now I see, in the parishes and people I have come across, that there is just as much scandal in the parishes around me. I saw someone self-intinct (is that the correct wording?) this past Saturday and was told that it was ok because that's how people used to do it.

Anyways, I'm rambling. My goal was (is) to find a community of like-minded individuals that can help me keep traditional practices through example. I've been to the TLM at St. Lawrence and I absolutely loved it, but the community at that parish is just as progressive as the ones near me. I planned on attending the TLM at St. Michael's but I imagine the community there will be similar (it's held at an NO parish). My home parish is actually pretty traditional (for an NO parish) but the people are so stuck up; its in a well-to-do neighborhood and if they can tell you don't make six figures a year, they don't want to have anything to do with you. I've had people flat out ask me if I speak English, as if I'm some lost illegal immigrant.

St. Athanasius sounds like the perfect place for me, but I've always been a pretty obedient person and I fear turning my back to the diocese. But I also see so many illicit things happening in the parishes, it makes me feel like I don't have a choice!

Thanks for letting me ramble and I hope that puts a better perspective on what I'm looking for.
Damooster, If our eternal salvation depended on like-minded individuals surrounding us then it is hardly likely that King David would have been saved. In the church there are a great cloud of like minded individuals in heaven with whom we can commune in prayer. Get a book about the Saints and their lives and engage in a dialogue with them in prayer. Devote yourself to prayers, in particular the rosary is brilliant for overcoming sin, devote yourself to the attendance of the mass and making a good confession. Prayer is the lynch pin of our faith not socialising. Many parishes have prayer groups which pray the prayers of the church eg. Vespers to help and guide people into a life of prayer. If you devote yourself in prayer first then you may find that positive friendships will blossom out of that. But if you put socialising first then I fear that you will continue to find the relationships unrewarding and unhelpful.

You are blessed to have access to a TLM in your local area. I hardly think that there would be any self-inticting going on there. If socialising is difficult then just go to mass and pray a bit longer in the church afterwards. I find I get really good socialising done at my local badminton club so any good socialising at church is a nice bonus. We can't be worried about what other people do, it is what we do which counts. Also I would like to suggest that not everyone in your local parish is stuck up. Just be polite to such stuck up people. I would try to find the company of old people. Their years in the faith grounds them and they are a wonderful influence on younger folk. Not all of them of course, but my point is I would be amazed if you cannot find one humble and kind elderly person to spend your time with. If people are proud and stuck up then humble yourself and you will find humble companions. Seek out the week and lowly and pay little care or mind of the high people.

This idea of community can be twisted. A proper community springs unbidden from a lively exercising of the faith. However this notion of community can just as easily be used by cults, sects and schismatics to control their members and keep them assimilated into their group. Therefore, get first things first and in faith wait upon the Lord for that positive companionship that we all desire.

Personally I would recommend going to the closest parish which has a regular TLM. I would absolutely avoid any SSPX or independent (read schismatic) Latin Mass community. An SSPX chapel might be OK for the occasional visit to a TLM but as Ecclesia Dei has warned, if this kind of visit is continued on a regular basis, you will gradually absorb the schismatic mentality of the organisation and you might one day find yourself detached from the church. Its not worth the risk.

Hope this helps.




Re: Traditional organizations? - artificial person - 11-06-2009

what's wrong with www.traditio.com? I've been reading that site for years, I think its great.


Re: Traditional organizations? - rbjmartin - 11-06-2009

(11-05-2009, 08:52 PM)petrelton Wrote: Damooster, If our eternal salvation depended on like-minded individuals surrounding us then it is hardly likely that King David would have been saved. In the church there are a great cloud of like minded individuals in heaven with whom we can commune in prayer. Get a book about the Saints and their lives and engage in a dialogue with them in prayer. Devote yourself to prayers, in particular the rosary is brilliant for overcoming sin, devote yourself to the attendance of the mass and making a good confession. Prayer is the lynch pin of our faith not socialising. Many parishes have prayer groups which pray the prayers of the church eg. Vespers to help and guide people into a life of prayer. If you devote yourself in prayer first then you may find that positive friendships will blossom out of that. But if you put socialising first then I fear that you will continue to find the relationships unrewarding and unhelpful.

You are blessed to have access to a TLM in your local area. I hardly think that there would be any self-inticting going on there. If socialising is difficult then just go to mass and pray a bit longer in the church afterwards. I find I get really good socialising done at my local badminton club so any good socialising at church is a nice bonus. We can't be worried about what other people do, it is what we do which counts. Also I would like to suggest that not everyone in your local parish is stuck up. Just be polite to such stuck up people. I would try to find the company of old people. Their years in the faith grounds them and they are a wonderful influence on younger folk. Not all of them of course, but my point is I would be amazed if you cannot find one humble and kind elderly person to spend your time with. If people are proud and stuck up then humble yourself and you will find humble companions. Seek out the week and lowly and pay little care or mind of the high people.

This idea of community can be twisted. A proper community springs unbidden from a lively exercising of the faith. However this notion of community can just as easily be used by cults, sects and schismatics to control their members and keep them assimilated into their group. Therefore, get first things first and in faith wait upon the Lord for that positive companionship that we all desire.

Personally I would recommend going to the closest parish which has a regular TLM. I would absolutely avoid any SSPX or independent (read schismatic) Latin Mass community. An SSPX chapel might be OK for the occasional visit to a TLM but as Ecclesia Dei has warned, if this kind of visit is continued on a regular basis, you will gradually absorb the schismatic mentality of the organisation and you might one day find yourself detached from the church. Its not worth the risk.

Hope this helps.
Excellent post.  Let me add that it is a common problem, even among traditionalist parishes and communities, to not have enough socializing going on.  That is something that some people I know here in San Antonio are trying to address both at the Anglican Use parish and at the TLM community.  I mention this because I want you to know that going to a full-on trad parish doesn't mean that you'll automatically strike up friendships with trads.  As with any relationships, it takes work to find those people and to build bonds with them.  Here, I've made all my worthwhile Catholic friendships by singing Gregorian chant for a few churches and gathering together with other men who want to learn and sing chant.  Sometimes, activities like this are the best way to build friendships and find support.

St. John the Beloved in McLean is full of traditionally-minded people.  They've had nothing but orthodox pastors with traditionalist leanings for years.  I urge you to speak to Fr. Scalia and let your concerns be known to him.  I am confident that he will be immensely helpful.  He may even be able to point you towards people in the parish with whom you may want to associate.

You could also try to Melkite parish.  Again, this is full of traditionally-minded people, including many converts, and they have many social events you could attend.  Their parish dinners usually feature excellent Greek/Eastern-Mediterranean food!

Again, I strongly urge you to remain within the bounds of legitimate diocesan institutions.  The Arlington diocese is among the best in the country.  You should have no problem finding like-minded individuals, if you apply yourself.


Re: Traditional organizations? - WhollyRoaminCatholic - 11-06-2009

(11-06-2009, 12:37 AM)artificial person Wrote: what's wrong with www.traditio.com? I've been reading that site for years, I think its great.
:pointlaff: