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The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Printable Version

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Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Carnivore - 12-06-2009

(12-06-2009, 11:16 AM)BrendanD Wrote: This place has become a conservative (and not so conservative) NO hang out.  The "I really like the Latin Mass but i choose go to the NO" crowd.

I'm fairly catholic in my liturgical tastes.  Rarely does a week go by that I do not attend both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and one of the Eastern Divine Liturgies.  I love them all of course but my all-time favorite is the Ordinary Form of the Mass with all the Smells & Bells -- much like Pope Benedict XVI celebrates.


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - BrendanD - 12-06-2009

(12-06-2009, 12:34 PM)Carnivore Wrote: I'm fairly catholic in my liturgical tastes.  Rarely does a week go by that I do not attend both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and one of the Eastern Divine Liturgies.  I love them all <b>of course but my all-time favorite is the Ordinary Form of the Mass with all the Smells & Bells</b> -- much like Pope Benedict XVI celebrates.

My point exactly.


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - SouthpawLink - 12-06-2009

(12-02-2009, 02:32 PM)Fractus Wrote: Favorite theologian of "Catholics" is Thomas Aquinas, and of "Traditionalists" is Scott Hahn or Alice von Hildebrand?? ???

What have you been smoking?

Exactly! It should be the other way around.

I went from Hahn to St. Thomas Aquinas (and the pre-conciliar Popes, Denzinger, Ott, Tanquerey, and Wilhelm and Scannell).

Sorry, guys!! I read up to Fractus' post and then quoted him... didn't see that a number of you asked to let this thread die (THK sentenced it to death,  :laughing: ).


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Carnivore - 12-06-2009

(12-06-2009, 12:44 PM)BrendanD Wrote:
(12-06-2009, 12:34 PM)Carnivore Wrote: I'm fairly catholic in my liturgical tastes.  Rarely does a week go by that I do not attend both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and one of the Eastern Divine Liturgies.  I love them all <b>of course but my all-time favorite is the Ordinary Form of the Mass with all the Smells & Bells</b> -- much like Pope Benedict XVI celebrates.

My point exactly.
It's GOOD to be catholic as well as Catholic.  A "catholic Catholic!"


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Carnivore - 12-06-2009

(12-06-2009, 01:11 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(12-02-2009, 02:32 PM)Fractus Wrote: Favorite theologian of "Catholics" is Thomas Aquinas, and of "Traditionalists" is Scott Hahn or Alice von Hildebrand?? ???

What have you been smoking?

Exactly! It should be the other way around.

I went from Hahn to St. Thomas Aquinas (and the pre-conciliar Popes, Denzinger, Ott, Tanquerey, and Wilhelm and Scannell).

Sorry, guys!! I read up to Fractus' post and then quoted him... didn't see that a number of you asked to let this thread die (THK sentenced it to death,  :laughing: ).

St. Thomas would retch at some of the ideas being pushed here -- like the notion that it is sinful to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass.


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Historian - 12-06-2009

(12-06-2009, 06:19 PM)Carnivore Wrote: St. Thomas would retch at some of the ideas being pushed here -- like the notion that it is sinful to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

How would he feel about lay people walking freely about the sanctuary, the common practice of turning back on the tabernacle and even moving the tabernacle from the altar?

How would he feel about the use of non-literal (or any) translations of the mass instead of the language it was written in? How would he feel about protestant songs being sung at mass?

How would he feel about a non clergy member placing the Eucharist into the hands of lay people?

I know many of things are not intrinsically part of the Ordinary Form, they are widespread and follow it everywhere.

This also doesn't address the possible problems with the mass itself as the rubrics have it. St. Thomas may find the notion that one would think it is sinful to attend any form of the mass approved by the Church, but then again, he'd probably be more sick to see what has been approved.


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Joseph11 - 12-07-2009

Since we don't have St. Thomas to comment on the NO, let's listen to the greatest liturgist of the 20th century (according to Ratzinger).

(bold parts are my emphases)

Quote:Only four years had passed since the publication of the new Missal when Pope Paul VI surprised the Catholic world with a new Ordo Missæ, dated April 6, 1969. The revision made in 1965 did not touch the traditional liturgical rite. In accordance with the mandate of Article 50 of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, it had been primarily concerned with removing some later additions to the Order of the Mass. The publication of the Ordo Missæ of 1969, however, created a new liturgical rite. In other words, the traditional liturgical rite had not simply been revised as the Council had intended. Rather, it had been completely abolished, and a couple of years later, the traditional liturgical rite was, in fact, forbidden.

All this leads to the question: Does such a radical reform follow the tradition of the Church? ...

The argument could be made that the pope's authority to introduce a new liturgical rite, that is, to do so without a decision by a council, can be derived from the "full and highest power" (plena et suprema potestas) he has in the Church, as cited by the First Vatican Council, i.e., power over matters quæ ad disciplinam et regimen ecclesiæ per totum orbem diffusæ pertinent ("that pertain to the discipline and rule of the Church spread out over all the world") (Denzinger, 1831).

However, the term disciplina in no way applies to the liturgical rite of the Mass, particularly in light of the fact that the popes have repeatedly observed that the rite is founded on apostolic tradition. For this reason alone, the rite cannot fall into the category of "discipline and rule of the Church." To this we can add that there is not a single document, including the Codex Iuris Canonici, in which there is a specific statement that the pope, in his function as the supreme pastor of the Church, has the authority to abolish the traditional liturgical rite. In fact, nowhere is it mentioned that the pope has the authority to change even a single local liturgical tradition. The fact that there is no mention of such authority strengthens our case considerably.

There are clearly defined limits to the plena et suprema potestas (full and highest powers) of the pope. For example, there is no question that, even in matters of dogma, he still has to follow the tradition of the universal Church—that is, as Vincent of Lerins says, what has been believed (quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus). In fact, there are several authors who state quite explicitly that it is clearly outside the pope's scope of authority to abolish the traditional rite.

Thus, the eminent theologian Suarez (who died in 1617), citing even earlier authors such as Cajetan (who died in 1534), took the position that a pope would be schismatic "if he, as is his duty, would not be in full communion with the body of the Church as, for example, if he were to excommunicate the entire Church, or if he were to change all the liturgical rites of the Church that have been upheld by apostolic tradition." [Et hoc secundo modo posset Papa esse schismaticus, si nollet tenere cum toto Ecclesiæ corpore unionem et coniunctionem quam debet, ut si tenat et totem Ecclesiam excommunicare, aut si vellel omnes Ecclesiasticas cæremonias apostolica traditione firmatas evertere.]

As we examine the issue of unlimited papal authority and how it relates to the authority to change the established liturgical rite, if the statement made by Suarez still is not entirely convincing, this argument just may be: the already established fact that, until Pope Paul VI, there has not been a single pope who introduced the type of fundamental changes in liturgical forms which we now witness.

Klaus Gamber

The Reform of the Roman Liturgy
(Die Reform der römischen Liturgie: Vorgeschichte und Problematik)

How many times does Archbishop Lefebvre have to be proven right before the suspicious people and the sand heads get it?!

Don't just read this in passing.  Look who the author was!  HE WAS NOT EVEN A MEMBER OF THE SSPX!  It's pretty obvious what he thought too:  Pope Paul VI acted beyond his authority.  Objectively speaking, THIS act could have been sinful.

And if a Catholic knows enough about the Modern Rite, he could justifiably wonder about the morality of exposing himself, or especially his children, to it.

And if I were a priest, because of what I know, I would definitely consider myself sinning to say the Holy Mass according to the Modern Rite.  No doubt in my mind at all.  I know it damages the Faith of the Church Militant.


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - The_Harlequin_King - 12-07-2009

Klaus Gamber, via Zakhur Wrote:In fact, nowhere is it mentioned that the pope has the authority to change even a single local liturgical tradition. The fact that there is no mention of such authority strengthens our case considerably.

If the Pope truly has no authority to change even local traditions, the Missal of 1570 was a giant mistake.


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Scipio_a - 12-07-2009

(12-06-2009, 02:38 AM)Carnivore Wrote:
(12-03-2009, 04:50 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: That's called wrestling!  LOL...and I already won.

Has nothing to do with "wrestling."

If you seriously believe that attending the Ordinary Form of the Mass is "sinful" then you hold a ludicrously erroneous belief.  One that would be instantly laughable (and/or lamentable) to most Catholics including Pope Benedict XVI.

Most "Catholics" aren't...so what's your point...some guys that intended to ruin the Faith would tell someone it's not sinful to scandalize folks by lending the errors and abuses credence...You have the reasoning capacity of Micky Mouse...Go back to my first post where I shut you down.

I hold no erroneous beliefs...ludicrous or otherwise...your belief that the sin of scandal ceases to be a sin if the place you are causing it is at a "Catholic" church shaking a tambourine...or even a so called true to the rubrics, as conservative as you please NO...well...that's just Ludacris


Re: The Fundamentalist Catholic Flowchart -- a Good Laugh LOL! - Scipio_a - 12-07-2009

(12-06-2009, 06:19 PM)Carnivore Wrote:
(12-06-2009, 01:11 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(12-02-2009, 02:32 PM)Fractus Wrote: Favorite theologian of "Catholics" is Thomas Aquinas, and of "Traditionalists" is Scott Hahn or Alice von Hildebrand?? ???

What have you been smoking?

Exactly! It should be the other way around.

I went from Hahn to St. Thomas Aquinas (and the pre-conciliar Popes, Denzinger, Ott, Tanquerey, and Wilhelm and Scannell).

Sorry, guys!! I read up to Fractus' post and then quoted him... didn't see that a number of you asked to let this thread die (THK sentenced it to death,  :laughing: ).

St. Thomas would retch at some of the ideas being pushed here -- like the notion that it is sinful to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Thankfully for him...he never had to see a prot Mess...sinful and often invalid   where you might get a chance at Our Lord insulted...or worse...a Well Worshiped Wheat Wafer.....then if you get one of those you can add the sin of idolotry...LOL.   Yeah, thats right.


And we already know of instances where at least one of the three elements is missing or incorrect...Just sick it in the sand like a good little lemming.


(12-06-2009, 12:34 PM)Carnivore Wrote: I love them all of course but my all-time favorite is the Ordinary Form of the Mass with all the Smells & Bells -- much like Pope Benedict XVI celebrates.

LOL, love having to worry about if the presbyter is eyeing your kid do ya?