FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums
i went to a tlm today... - Printable Version

+- FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Church (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Forum: Catholicism (https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: i went to a tlm today... (/showthread.php?tid=33078)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Vetus Ordo - 01-08-2010

(01-07-2010, 11:57 PM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:55 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:52 PM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:44 PM)salome Wrote: I understand that but my point is that many Eastern Rite Catholics still use the Orthodox theology books, old and new.  When you visit www.byzcath.org you will see references and links to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox news or faith issues, etc.

This is a sad consequence of Vatican II and ecumenism. Byzcath is nothing but an orthodox site pretending to be catholic. Unfortunately, the same could be said of many eastern clergy,

So the all those Ukrainians, Melkites, and Balkan Catholics I've heard so much about being persecuted are too small a number to be substantial or are merely being ignored by the liberal Eastern Catholics clergy who live in Western countries?

Are you trying to play smart or is it just my impression?

If I was trying to play smart I would have posted an internet meme or used a smiley of some sort. I am aware that many Eastern Catholics have schismatic tendencies, but I am also aware that many are persecuted for not having those tendencies (ex: Society of St. Josaphat).

The society of St. Josaphat, affiliated with the SSPX, is an honourable exception. You are right: they are mercilessly persecuted by the modernists and the "orthodox" in disguise who loathe "latinizations" and the Holy Roman Church.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - WanderingPenitent - 01-08-2010

(01-07-2010, 11:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:56 PM)salome Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:44 PM)salome Wrote: I understand that but my point is that many Eastern Rite Catholics still use the Orthodox theology books, old and new.  When you visit www.byzcath.org you will see references and links to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox news or faith issues, etc.

This is a sad consequence of Vatican II and ecumenism. Byzcath is nothing but an orthodox site pretending to be catholic. Unfortunately, the same could be said of many eastern clergy,

Well I disagree with you Vetus.  I hope this doesn't come across condescending or unkind but I just want to say that I know it is a shock to a lot of Catholics to learn all of this new stuff about the East because we were never taught it as "Western" Catholics.   But the truth is the Truth and history is history.  We can deny it or we can accept it.  I have chosen to accept it...meaning I have chosen to accept all of the Church not just the Roman half and I have found immense peace ever since.  As I said before I can't imagine my life without the Eastern Church now...without its theology.  The Son (son) does indeed rise in the East. 

Have a great evening!  I must finish my late shift now!  :)

Gospodi pomilui

It seems to me that you're flirting with heresy and schismatics. I hope it's just a phase, like the initial phase of those who are clouded by passion and cannot discern truth and danger.

I think we can disagree with each other and not be in danger of heresy unless we disagree with the Holy Mother Church's dogma. If salome is in danger of schism it would seem better to show compassion and charity rather than harshness and criticism unless one starts to show a conscious and willful act of disrespect and disobedience. If salome is not in danger of schism than such a statement seems a bit too restrictive for a "Universal" Church that allows people to disagree with each other.

If a theology is not in contradiction of the Dogma of Holy Mother Church, nor in contradiction of the spirit of the Dogma, then I do not see the immediate danger. Calling Purgatory "Final Theosis" is hardly grounds for calling someone a schismatic, for example.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Vetus Ordo - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 12:04 AM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:56 PM)salome Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:44 PM)salome Wrote: I understand that but my point is that many Eastern Rite Catholics still use the Orthodox theology books, old and new.  When you visit www.byzcath.org you will see references and links to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox news or faith issues, etc.

This is a sad consequence of Vatican II and ecumenism. Byzcath is nothing but an orthodox site pretending to be catholic. Unfortunately, the same could be said of many eastern clergy,

Well I disagree with you Vetus.  I hope this doesn't come across condescending or unkind but I just want to say that I know it is a shock to a lot of Catholics to learn all of this new stuff about the East because we were never taught it as "Western" Catholics.   But the truth is the Truth and history is history.  We can deny it or we can accept it.  I have chosen to accept it...meaning I have chosen to accept all of the Church not just the Roman half and I have found immense peace ever since.  As I said before I can't imagine my life without the Eastern Church now...without its theology.  The Son (son) does indeed rise in the East. 

Have a great evening!  I must finish my late shift now!  :)

Gospodi pomilui

It seems to me that you're flirting with heresy and schismatics. I hope it's just a phase, like the initial phase of those who are clouded by passion and cannot discern truth and danger.

I think we can disagree with each other and not be in danger of heresy unless we disagree with the Holy Mother Church's dogma. If salome is in danger of schism it would seem better to show compassion and charity rather than harshness and criticism unless one starts to show a conscious and willful act of disrespect and disobedience. If salome is not in danger of schism than such a statement seems a bit too restrictive for a "Universal" Church that allows people to disagree with each other.

If a theology is not in contradiction of the Dogma of Holy Mother Church, nor in contradiction of the spirit of the Dogma, then I do not see the immediate danger. Calling Purgatory "Final Theosis" is hardly grounds for calling someone a schismatic, for example.

We don't need to play these petty games with one another, WanderingPenitent.

We know quite well the overwhelming presence of a dangerous schismatic mentality, prone to heresy and vice, in those who are affiliated with the Eastern Catholic Church. It's unfortunate and it should have never happened but it is real, quite real. Since the reforms of Vatican II and the ecumenical mentality it set forth, this reality is even more present and widespread. The uniates are despised and forced to "easternize" their practices. Nowadays, most of them can hardly be distinguishable from the Easter schismatics and openly profess sympathy for them and their loathsome doctrines, while at the same time exhibit the same kind of pitiful rhetorics against the Holy Roman Church. This is tragic and saddening.

The way they fear and speak against "latinizations" and other western practices, for instance, belies much more than a mere wish to preserve their traditions. It belies hatred of the Church.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - WanderingPenitent - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 12:12 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-08-2010, 12:04 AM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:56 PM)salome Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:44 PM)salome Wrote: I understand that but my point is that many Eastern Rite Catholics still use the Orthodox theology books, old and new.  When you visit www.byzcath.org you will see references and links to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox news or faith issues, etc.

This is a sad consequence of Vatican II and ecumenism. Byzcath is nothing but an orthodox site pretending to be catholic. Unfortunately, the same could be said of many eastern clergy,

Well I disagree with you Vetus.  I hope this doesn't come across condescending or unkind but I just want to say that I know it is a shock to a lot of Catholics to learn all of this new stuff about the East because we were never taught it as "Western" Catholics.   But the truth is the Truth and history is history.  We can deny it or we can accept it.  I have chosen to accept it...meaning I have chosen to accept all of the Church not just the Roman half and I have found immense peace ever since.  As I said before I can't imagine my life without the Eastern Church now...without its theology.  The Son (son) does indeed rise in the East. 

Have a great evening!  I must finish my late shift now!  :)

Gospodi pomilui

It seems to me that you're flirting with heresy and schismatics. I hope it's just a phase, like the initial phase of those who are clouded by passion and cannot discern truth and danger.

I think we can disagree with each other and not be in danger of heresy unless we disagree with the Holy Mother Church's dogma. If salome is in danger of schism it would seem better to show compassion and charity rather than harshness and criticism unless one starts to show a conscious and willful act of disrespect and disobedience. If salome is not in danger of schism than such a statement seems a bit too restrictive for a "Universal" Church that allows people to disagree with each other.

If a theology is not in contradiction of the Dogma of Holy Mother Church, nor in contradiction of the spirit of the Dogma, then I do not see the immediate danger. Calling Purgatory "Final Theosis" is hardly grounds for calling someone a schismatic, for example.

We don't need to play these petty games with one another, WanderingPenitent.

We know quite well the overwhelming presence of a dangerous schismatic mentality, prone to heresy and vice, in those who are affiliated with the Eastern Catholic Church. It's unfortunate and it should have never happened but it is real, quite real. Since the reforms of Vatican II and the ecumenical mentality it set forth, this reality is even more present and widespread. The uniates are despised and forced to "easternize" their practices. Nowadays, most of them can hardly be distinguishable from the Easter schismatics and openly profess sympathy for them and their loathsome doctrines, while at the same time exhibit the same kind of pitiful rhetorics against the Holy Roman Church. This is tragic and saddening.

The way they fear and speak against "latinizations" and other western practices, for instance, belies much more than a mere wish to preserve their traditions. It belies hatred of the Church.

Of all this I am well aware. But if someone affirms the good things about a non-Latin liturgy, why must they already be suspect of condemning anything Latin? Salome did not say anything detracting the "Roman Rite" or "Latinizations." Furthermore, being a fan of Eastern Liturgy does not automatically make one suspect of being schismatic or having schismatic tendencies. Yes there is reason to suspect real problems that are very prevalent. But what I was trying to say is that maybe we should not point fingers at individuals so easily.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Vetus Ordo - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 12:19 AM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-08-2010, 12:12 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-08-2010, 12:04 AM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:56 PM)salome Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 11:44 PM)salome Wrote: I understand that but my point is that many Eastern Rite Catholics still use the Orthodox theology books, old and new.  When you visit www.byzcath.org you will see references and links to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox news or faith issues, etc.

This is a sad consequence of Vatican II and ecumenism. Byzcath is nothing but an orthodox site pretending to be catholic. Unfortunately, the same could be said of many eastern clergy,

Well I disagree with you Vetus.  I hope this doesn't come across condescending or unkind but I just want to say that I know it is a shock to a lot of Catholics to learn all of this new stuff about the East because we were never taught it as "Western" Catholics.   But the truth is the Truth and history is history.  We can deny it or we can accept it.  I have chosen to accept it...meaning I have chosen to accept all of the Church not just the Roman half and I have found immense peace ever since.  As I said before I can't imagine my life without the Eastern Church now...without its theology.  The Son (son) does indeed rise in the East. 

Have a great evening!  I must finish my late shift now!  :)

Gospodi pomilui

It seems to me that you're flirting with heresy and schismatics. I hope it's just a phase, like the initial phase of those who are clouded by passion and cannot discern truth and danger.

I think we can disagree with each other and not be in danger of heresy unless we disagree with the Holy Mother Church's dogma. If salome is in danger of schism it would seem better to show compassion and charity rather than harshness and criticism unless one starts to show a conscious and willful act of disrespect and disobedience. If salome is not in danger of schism than such a statement seems a bit too restrictive for a "Universal" Church that allows people to disagree with each other.

If a theology is not in contradiction of the Dogma of Holy Mother Church, nor in contradiction of the spirit of the Dogma, then I do not see the immediate danger. Calling Purgatory "Final Theosis" is hardly grounds for calling someone a schismatic, for example.

We don't need to play these petty games with one another, WanderingPenitent.

We know quite well the overwhelming presence of a dangerous schismatic mentality, prone to heresy and vice, in those who are affiliated with the Eastern Catholic Church. It's unfortunate and it should have never happened but it is real, quite real. Since the reforms of Vatican II and the ecumenical mentality it set forth, this reality is even more present and widespread. The uniates are despised and forced to "easternize" their practices. Nowadays, most of them can hardly be distinguishable from the Easter schismatics and openly profess sympathy for them and their loathsome doctrines, while at the same time exhibit the same kind of pitiful rhetorics against the Holy Roman Church. This is tragic and saddening.

The way they fear and speak against "latinizations" and other western practices, for instance, belies much more than a mere wish to preserve their traditions. It belies hatred of the Church.

Of all this I am well aware. But if someone affirms the good things about a non-Latin liturgy, why must they already be suspect of condemning anything Latin? Salome did not say anything detracting the "Roman Rite" or "Latinizations." Furthermore, being a fan of Eastern Liturgy does not automatically make one suspect of being schismatic or having schismatic tendencies. Yes there is reason to suspect real problems that are very prevalent. But what I was trying to say is that maybe we should not point fingers at individuals so easily.

She talked about using "orthodox" (schismatic and heretic) theology books. She then mentioned www.byzcath.org, a well known pseudo-catholic site. Have you missed that point on purpose? This shameful tendency amongst eastern catholics nowadays is widespread. More important than that: not only Salome speaks of that, but many eastern catholic clergy encourage that practice as well. The eastern catholic church has been sold to the schismatics since Vatican II. That is the sad reality of the situation, a reality often denied for the sake of convenience of false unity.

Groups like the Society of St. Josaphat are encouraging but sadly are not enough.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Melkite - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 12:12 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: We know quite well the overwhelming presence of a dangerous schismatic mentality, prone to heresy and vice, in those who are affiliated with the Eastern Catholic Church. It's unfortunate and it should have never happened but it is real, quite real. Since the reforms of Vatican II and the ecumenical mentality it set forth, this reality is even more present and widespread. The uniates are despised and forced to "easternize" their practices. Nowadays, most of them can hardly be distinguishable from the Easter schismatics and openly profess sympathy for them and their loathsome doctrines, while at the same time exhibit the same kind of pitiful rhetorics against the Holy Roman Church. This is tragic and saddening.

The way they fear and speak against "latinizations" and other western practices, for instance, belies much more than a mere wish to preserve their traditions. It belies hatred of the Church.

Until the Latin Church has sorted out its own problems, perhaps it would be wise that they not try to fix ours for us.  Why do you speak of us easternizing our practice as if it was something we didn't want to do?  We were not forced into it.  Rather, our ancestors in the faith were forced to westernize their practices.  There is absolutely no good reason that our liturgical practice should look any different from that of the Eastern Orthodox.  Their liturgy itself is not schismatic because they are using a Catholic liturgy.  I don't want to comment too much on SSJK because I don't know much about them, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that they are not so much for tradition as they are for maintaining latinization.  If they were truly supportive of tradition, shouldn't they want to maintain an authentic Eastern, Catholic form of worship.  The practices that they are fighting for are ones that are relatively novel to the East, and the return to Eastern practices that many Eastern Catholics are doing is not adopting schismatic practices, but reincorporating Catholic practices that are older than the Schism itself.  I started this whole thread to express an appreciation for the authentic Roman rite that I experienced last week.  It had nothing to do with Eastern practices or an attempt to Byzantinize the West.  I would hate to see the Roman rite lose any of its Romanness because it has been replaced by something Byzantine.  The Roman rite is something incredibly beautiful on its own.  I don't understand why it is so hard for so many Latins to have the same appreciation for something which is fully Eastern and fully Catholic, but rather doubt its Catholicity because it's not peppered with Latinisms?  My church looks identical to a schismatic Orthodox church.  If I were of a schismatic mentality, then why would I remain Catholic?  I can have everything liturgically that I want in an Orthodox church, there's no reason for me to remain Catholic if that was my sole motive.  I'm Catholic because the Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ and the Orthodox are in error.  I gladly affirm my fidelity to Catholic doctrine as opposed to Orthodox doctrine, and most Eastern Catholics are willing to do the same.  Why do you need anything more than that to be sure of our Catholicity?  Why do we have to practice our faith like the Latins also before you'll believe us?


Re: i went to a tlm today... - WanderingPenitent - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 11:57 AM)Melkite Wrote: I don't want to comment too much on SSJK because I don't know much about them, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that they are not so much for tradition as they are for maintaining latinization.  If they were truly supportive of tradition, shouldn't they want to maintain an authentic Eastern, Catholic form of worship. 

The SSJK do not want to Latinize the Ukrainian Catholic Church, nor do they want to "Ukrainize" it either. Their dispute is that Slovenian is being replaced with Ukrainian (they do not want to use Latin but Slovenian and the SSPX support them in this), are being discouraged from praying the Rosary (which is mean to be a Catholic practice, not uniquely Roman) and are having their stations of the Cross taken out of the churches (which was a practice begun in Jerusalem, also not Roman just more common with Romans). These things are seen as "Latinizations" by the Ukrainian Orthodox (which they are not) and therefore are being discouraged by the Vatican and liberal Ukrainian Catholic bishops in order to not scare off "ecumenical relations" with the Ukrainian Orthodox. So the SSJK have had enough and are working against these reforms by still using Slovenian and promoting the praying of the Rosary. They certainly want an "Eastern" form of worship if they are using Slovenian. But they are also in favor of traditions that do not necessarily have their origins in the East but are meant to be Universal (such as the Rosary). The SSPX support them in this and do not want them to become "Westernized." They merely want the Ukrainian Church, like the whole Catholic Church, to be more Universal (and thus Catholic).

Hope that cleared up some misconceptions.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Melkite - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 12:22 PM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(01-08-2010, 11:57 AM)Melkite Wrote: I don't want to comment too much on SSJK because I don't know much about them, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that they are not so much for tradition as they are for maintaining latinization.  If they were truly supportive of tradition, shouldn't they want to maintain an authentic Eastern, Catholic form of worship. 

The SSJK do not want to Latinize the Ukrainian Catholic Church, nor do they want to "Ukrainize" it either. Their dispute is that Slovenian is being replaced with Ukrainian (they do not want to use Latin but Slovenian and the SSPX support them in this), are being discouraged from praying the Rosary (which is mean to be a Catholic practice, not uniquely Roman) and are having their stations of the Cross taken out of the churches (which was a practice begun in Jerusalem, also not Roman just more common with Romans). These things are seen as "Latinizations" by the Ukrainian Orthodox (which they are not) and therefore are being discouraged by the Vatican and liberal Ukrainian Catholic bishops in order to not scare off "ecumenical relations" with the Ukrainian Orthodox. So the SSJK have had enough and are working against these reforms by still using Slovenian and promoting the praying of the Rosary. They certainly want an "Eastern" form of worship if they are using Slovenian. But they are also in favor of traditions that do not necessarily have their origins in the East but are meant to be Universal (such as the Rosary). The SSPX support them in this and do not want them to become "Westernized." They merely want the Ukrainian Church, like the whole Catholic Church, to be more Universal (and thus Catholic).

Hope that cleared up some misconceptions.

You mean Slavonic, right?  The Croatian had the TLM in Slavonic instead of Latin, so using Slavonic alone isn't an Eastern thing.  But that's interesting, I thought there was more to SSJK than that.  Is it really only these three things that they are fighting for?  Are they fighting for the rosary to be prayed in church prior to liturgy?  That is, are they fighting for it to be there instead of matins?  What about other minor things?  Are they fighting for pews and kneelers to be kept in the churches, or are they ok with removing those?  Are they fighting for an only celibate priesthood, or do they want to maintain the tradition of allowed married men to be ordained as well?  What is their point of view on all the main Latinizations that people bring up?


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Vetus Ordo - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 11:57 AM)Melkite Wrote: Why do we have to practice our faith like the Latins also before you'll believe us?

You conveniently left out the part where the Eastern Catholic clergy is basically infested with prelates encouraging the reading of "orthodox" books and praising their theology; or the fact that in their rhetoric one can easily find traces of anti-western and anti-roman suspicion and hatred coupled with an undisguised sympathy for the schismatics. Their disordered distaste for everything roman belies a profound hatred of the Church. You exhibited some of this disorder in this thread by maligning the pious practice of the exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. I'm sure there are many more like you, including priests.

Quod scripsi, scripsi. What I wrote is written. I believe the Eastern Catholics, or the uniates, were sold to the schismatics in order to appease them and foster ecumenical relations. Their current hierarchy is full of closet-schismatics and the laity is being told to believe as schismatics. Our causes for suspicion are well-founded, I'm afraid.

As for the liturgy, I've already told you what I think and that I would not insist on this point because it could be counterproductive. I have my opinions on the subject but I'll abstain from pushing the issue further.


Re: i went to a tlm today... - Vetus Ordo - 01-08-2010

(01-08-2010, 12:40 PM)Melkite Wrote: Are they fighting for an only celibate priesthood, or do they want to maintain the tradition of allowed married men to be ordained as well?

This would be a good "latinization", for instance.